{"id":3718,"date":"2023-10-26T10:00:50","date_gmt":"2023-10-26T09:00:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3718"},"modified":"2023-10-26T09:21:18","modified_gmt":"2023-10-26T08:21:18","slug":"on-poetry-disability-and-the-power-of-medical-humanities","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2023\/10\/26\/on-poetry-disability-and-the-power-of-medical-humanities\/","title":{"rendered":"On Poetry, Disability, and the Power of Medical Humanities"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><b>A Discussion with Kimberly Campanello<\/b><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-3719\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2023\/10\/Campanello-Kimberly-240x300.jpg\" alt=\"Portrait of Kimberly Campanello\" width=\"240\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2023\/10\/Campanello-Kimberly-240x300.jpg 240w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2023\/10\/Campanello-Kimberly.jpg 572w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 240px) 100vw, 240px\" \/>Kimberly Campanello, an academic, creative writer, and poet,\u00a0was diagnosed with Young Onset Parkinson&#8217;s in 2021. She has been awarded a Developing Your Creative Practice Grant by Arts Council England to support her writing of chronic illness and disability. Campanello is presently Professor of Poetry at the University of Leeds, and today she speaks to Brandy about embodiment, disability, and what it means to translate the self to others. Please join us\u2014and check out her work, available here:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Poem &#8216;<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/granta.com\/moving-nowhere-here-kimberly-campanello\/\">Moving Nowhere Here<\/a><\/strong>&#8216; (<i>Granta<\/i>)<\/li>\n<li>Essay\/story &#8216;<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.tolkajournal.org\/shop\/p\/issue-five\">Essential Material<\/a><\/strong>&#8216; (<i>Tolka\u00a0<\/i>issue 5)<\/li>\n<li>Essay\/story &#8216;<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/somesuch-co.myshopify.com\/products\/somesuch-stories-7\">Paradoxical Kinesia<\/a><\/strong>&#8216; (<i>Somesuch Stories\u00a0<\/i>issue 7)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Listen to the Podcast on <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/mhbmj.podbean.com\/e\/poetry-disability-and-the-power-of-medical-humanities-with-kimberly-campanello\/\">Podbean<\/a><\/strong>:<\/p>\n<style type=\"text\/css\">\r\n       .errordiv { padding:10px; margin:10px; border: 1px solid #555555;color: #000000;background-color: #f8f8f8; width:500px; }#advanced_iframe {visibility:visible;opacity:1;}#ai-layer-div-advanced_iframe p {height:100%;margin:0;padding:0}<\/style><script type=\"text\/javascript\">  var ai_iframe_width_advanced_iframe = 0;  var ai_iframe_height_advanced_iframe = 0;var aiIsIe8=false;var aiOnloadScrollTop=\"true\";\r\nif (typeof aiReadyCallbacks === 'undefined') {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];  \r\n} else if (!(aiReadyCallbacks instanceof Array)) {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];\r\n}    function aiShowIframeId(id_iframe) { jQuery(\"#\"+id_iframe).css(\"visibility\", \"visible\");    }    function aiResizeIframeHeight(height) { aiResizeIframeHeight(height,advanced_iframe); }    function aiResizeIframeHeightId(height,width,id) {aiResizeIframeHeightById(id,height);}<\/script><iframe loading=\"lazy\" id=\"advanced_iframe\"  name=\"advanced_iframe\"  src=\"https:\/\/www.podbean.com\/player-v2\/?from=embed&amp;pbad=0&amp;i=99ifs-14d1807-pb&amp;square=1&amp;share=1&amp;download=1&amp;fonts=Arial&amp;skin=1&amp;font-color=auto&amp;rtl=0&amp;logo_link=episode_page&amp;btn-skin=666666&amp;size=300\"  width=\"560\"  height=\"315\"  frameborder=\"0\"  border=\"0\"  allowtransparency=\"true\"  allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\"  style=\";width:560;height:315;\" ><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">var ifrm_advanced_iframe = document.getElementById(\"advanced_iframe\");var hiddenTabsDoneadvanced_iframe = false;\r\nfunction resizeCallbackadvanced_iframe() {}function aiChangeUrl(loc) {}<\/script>\n<h3><strong>Transcript<\/strong><\/h3>\n<p>DR BRANDY SCHILLACE: Hello and welcome back to the <i>Medical Humanities Podcast<\/i>. This is Brandy Schillace, Editor in Chief. And today I\u2019m here with Dr Kimberly Campanello, who is a poet and an academic, and is also going to enlighten us a bit today about being someone with disabilities and a writer and a creator in all of those ways. So, welcome, Kimberly.<\/p>\n<p>DR KIMBERLY CAMPANELLO: Hey, thanks for having me. I\u2019m really excited to talk with you today.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, tell us a little bit about yourself. I mentioned to Kimberly when we first started talking that I was going to put a bio together, but there\u2019s a lot! [laughs] I\u2019ll let you go.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. So, I\u2019ve always been a writer. I\u2019ve always been someone who writes and reads literature, poetry, everything, all through high school in Indiana. And ultimately, I needed to get out of Indiana for various Indiana reasons. And so, a long story short, I ended up in the UK in Ireland writing poetry, writing and publishing poetry, and also doing creative writing PhD and becoming a creative writing academic, teaching and leading in practice research, which is great and really, really well resourced in the UK and Europe. So, yeah, so I\u2019ve lived in Ireland, I\u2019ve lived in the UK, I\u2019ve lived in France, I\u2019ve lived a bit more recently, spent a lot of time in Italy, all over the US. I haven\u2019t lived in Indiana since I was 18.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, Alabama, Florida, Cincinnati, both sides of Florida. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: It\u2019s as close to us as you\u2019ve come. So, I\u2019m in Cleveland, Ohio, of course.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Okay!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I have also lived, I lived in Arizona. I actually did part of my dissertation research in Scotland, so I\u2019ve lived over there. So, yeah, I like this plan. The muchness of the world is something that I think a writer likes to explore. [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yes. Exactly. So, I suppose the way I come at sort of medical humanities or chronic illness and disability is well, while I was in Cincinnati, I did an MA in Gender\u2014 Well, they changed it from Women\u2019s and Gender Studies to Women\u2019s Gender and Sexuality Studies, which is what I actually have on my certificate. And I was aware of crip theory. I was aware of quite a lot around that because it was a brilliant course that I did at the University of Cincinnati. But experientially, it wasn\u2019t my experience. And fast forward, and I was diagnosed with Young Onset Parkinson\u2019s in 2021 and have since had a whole lot of experiences [laughs] that come from that diagnosis and have increasingly been writing about that.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, previously, I\u2019ve written a lot about what I guess I would broadly call erotic autonomy. So, I wrote about mother and baby homes. I\u2019ve written about sort of the church and state and all those sorts of issues in my work, which isn\u2019t a million miles away from some of this.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: But certainly because in the mother and baby homes, so many&#8230; so many children and so many of the women in them were specifically targeted for having illness or disability and deemed not of value, so.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. So, then I started writing on this subject, and I applied for a Developing Your Creative Practice grant through the Arts Council England, because I really felt like, hey, I wanna spend some time, well, with some mentoring, so with some writers who have thought about this before over a longer period of time, and also just get some advice on things like how do you navigate gigs?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: \u2018Cause at first, I just stopped. I stopped doing gigs because I thought, gosh, I, you know. It was post-COVID, so we also weren\u2019t doing anything in-person.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm, right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, that sort of thing. So, and then I also had the grant to go to the World Parkinson\u2019s Congress, which maybe can we can talk about a bit later.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, that\u2019s kind of where we are. So, I\u2019ve written some pieces on it in prose and in poetry, and that\u2019s where I am.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah. Well, I think it\u2019s really interesting. For those of you who listen to our podcast regularly, you\u2019ll have heard Alice Wong on here a couple times and Alyssa Burgart and several other folks. We talk a lot about disability and the way it changes your sense of embodiment. I have a chronic illness and a disability, which mine are sort of invisible. I have those invisible ones, you know, where everyone just kind of, \u201cYou look all right.\u201d [laughs] So, everyone kind of does, misses it. And then I think that almost encourages a kind of masking on the part of someone like myself; I pretend not to be ill even when I am. But you can\u2019t get away from the embodiedness of experience, which is new to someone like me. I live a lot in my head. Some of that\u2019s autism; some of that\u2019s just how I\u2019m built. And to suddenly sort of be forced to recognize the body in its joy, in its sorrow, in its erotica, in its mundane, you know, all of these different facets.<\/p>\n<p>So, I was wondering first, probably, you might need to say a few words to our audience members who might not be familiar with mother and baby homes, particularly in the context in which you were looking at them. But also that sense of body context, it\u2019s not like it\u2019s never there. It\u2019s always there. But the way in which it becomes so centered, I think, when you have to think about your body a lot.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah, I mean, yeah. Well, firstly, so the mother and baby homes were run all around Ireland and the UK and by, often by religious institutions on behalf of the respective states. And that is where women were sent who became pregnant and who were not resourced to have their children or to make their reproductive decisions. So, it actually led to quite a lot of children being sent to the United States or to other countries, sometimes illegally, sometimes coercively, sometimes we don\u2019t even know.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And so, more recently in Ireland, there have been a number of stories that have broken around that, not least the tomb where there were children buried literally in septic tanks, which is what my work is about. And so, I began writing about that because I grew up in Indiana, down the road from the University of Notre Dame, going to mass at the Basilica and lighting candles at the Grotto. So, I felt very connected to that pathway between the Irish Catholic institutional context and the way the Americans, you know, that circulates. And so, one of the ways that circulates, of course, is through the control of certain bodies and through language and also quite directly. So, yeah. And then in terms of the feeling of your body, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been exploring a lot in my work. I\u2019ve got a long poem in Granta. It\u2019s online, so if people want to check it out, it\u2019s called <i>Moving Nowhere Here<\/i>. And it\u2019s quite philosophical about these very questions. And I\u2019ve also got a short piece that maybe I could just read these two paragraphs because it kind of does exactly what we\u2019re talking about, if that\u2019s all right. Because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes, why don\u2019t you do that? And also, I\u2019ll just tell our listeners, this is always going to be part also, that we have an attendant blog post that will go up, so there will be links there as well.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Perfect.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, yeah. Please, please read.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, this is from <i>Paradoxical Kinesia,<\/i> a little short piece, and I write from the perspective of K. So, the poet K finds herself in all of these situations and reflects a lot on what it is to make poetry or what it is to make art or to make anything at all when your body is doing what it\u2019s doing in the world in which it is. And this one comes, this issue of Somesuch Stories was just released actually today. So, it kind of describes a bit about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [inaudible].<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. Thanks. It kind of describes, this is just two paragraphs of it, so it\u2019s a teaser, but. So, K is in the crypt, which actually is the crypt by Notre Dame.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And at the end of the piece, K reflects upon Quasimodo and the portrayal of Quasimodo. \u201cK attempts to walk normally and then limp dramatically through the exhibit. Her illness has decoupled brain from body when it comes to many things, especially walking. She appears drunk or threatening to the peace or vulnerable to attack, like an animal that has been hit by a car. To walk, she deploys cues her physiotherapist taught her, which for a brief stretch can make her movement seem, if not feel, fluid. When tired, she tries consistent limping, an attempt to signify something intelligible is wrong, like an ankle sprain. Both approaches attract either no attention or some sympathy. She is unable to maintain either series of movements for very long.<\/p>\n<p>K often tells her writing students not to spend precious language moving characters around. Unless the way a character moves is important, skip it. Let the reader assume they have moved based on what is around them and what they say and do. K thinks the way she moves now could be significant but wonders how much weight this should be given in any story. She thinks the miraculous qualities of even the simplest movements may well deserve language. She estimates how much space it would take up if done wholeheartedly, the struggle past the school group, rubber boots squeaking at irregular intervals, a tremoring arm jammed under a backpack strap to hold it close. Not for physical benefit, but for the comfort of others, so she, the character, can be with them. This being with others stands for something she can\u2019t quite imagine the writer conveying.\u201d So, I suppose it gets at a few of the same things, describing it.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right. Absolutely. Well, the body in space. And I would also say that it\u2019s a queering of the narrative, too, isn\u2019t it? Because the desire of normalcy, that people want you to occupy space in a very specific way, or else they think you are, I love your use of the idea of drunk and disorderly. I really appreciate those two, the terms kind of following on each other because the ease with which that becomes a \u201coh, okay. I can deal with this because I have now put them in the box of this is a disorderly, this is a drunk and disorderly person. I don\u2019t have to think about that now.\u201d So, you know, it\u2019s also, it\u2019s a label that erases.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been trying to think about is how so many of the experiences that we have are not intelligible. And so, by having this poet K, this character K, I can kind of make her thinking about it intelligible, but also, perhaps how other people might be thinking about it as a process.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, you know, the process of her thinking through, \u201cHey, I\u2019m now realizing I\u2019ve been telling my students not to describe people moving around, but hey, it\u2019s fucking hard to move.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: I probably shouldn\u2019t swear on here. Hey, it\u2019s really hard to do.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: No, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: But I think part of it is because I\u2019ve been writing these all along, kind of in medias res is my own realizations and my own confrontations with the variations of my experience. And paradoxical kinesia is the thing that you get with Parkinson\u2019s where you can go over difficult terrain, or like, I can do the Stairmaster until the cows come home, but I can\u2019t walk to the shop. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, you can do difficult things, but you can\u2019t often do the easy things because you\u2019ve lost the automaticity.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And similarly, so, I have one called paradoxical kinesia. I\u2019ve got another one called tachyphylaxis, so the idea that you\u2019re, there\u2019s gonna be a drop-off in the efficacy of your meds. And so, I try to think about that in relation to obviously the literal experience of tachyphylaxis, but also the way we can experience that with our actual everyday lives or with art. What is it when we can\u2019t feel anything anymore [laughs] about something?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So and trying to work through some of that medicalized language, which I know in the medical humanities is such a valuable perspective. The idea of the desired effect, which I was told, well, I said, \u201cWell, what\u2019s the desired effect?\u201d And it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s determined by you.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, who am I? Because\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>BOTH: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: \u201cWho am I if I keep changing because these meds are changing my brain chemistry? So, how will I know what the desired effect is? Because my brain chemistry will have changed, so.\u201d [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, no. It\u2019s complicated.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Those kinds of questions are, you know, you have to laugh at them at a certain point because it throws you immediately into some of the kind of deep philosophical questions of most of the kind of 20th-century critical theory. And you\u2019re just trying to get your meds, like trying to figure out what your dosage is! You know?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, I try to kind of keep that humorous perspective where I can in the writing itself, which is not for my, it\u2019s not for\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Well, and it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: No, go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: No, I was just gonna say it\u2019s not just for my benefit. It\u2019s for the benefit of others, but it\u2019s for the benefit of the range of emotions that you might have in a given moment around illness and around disability. You don\u2019t all, it\u2019s not all one note, you know?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, when I\u2019ve read some of this work, another piece that\u2019s in this literary magazine called <i>Tolka<\/i>, I read it, I read from it in Dublin. And people were laughing and crying and like kind of going through all these emotions through this as K is experiencing all these things. And I\u2019m thinking, well, that\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to achieve.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Because it isn\u2019t a one-note thing. You\u2019re not just, even in sort of 45 seconds, [laughs] it\u2019s not the same experience. Which is hard to capture, but I\u2019m doing my best anyway, so.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: But I think, too, it\u2019s difficult to, it\u2019s hard to capture, but I would say it\u2019s even more difficult to communicate, to articulate, to translate, translate that experience.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Mmhmm, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, I write fiction as well as nonfiction. And in my most recent book, it\u2019ll be coming out in February, the main character\u2014it\u2019s a mystery novel\u2014the main character is autistic like myself. And I decided the best way to portray that was you\u2019re inside her head first. And then there\u2019s another character who also gets like first-person perspective. So, then you\u2019re inside their head watching her, and so you tend to see a lot of overlapping scenes. So, you see things make perfect sense to her. She\u2019s like, \u201cThis is a really sensible way to behave.\u201d And then you see what other people see, and you\u2019re like, no, you look like you are out of your mind! So, that attempting to balance that. And like you said, to make it humorous but also grounding it in the disabled experience first so that the reader approaches it and goes, \u201cYeah, I would, I get that. I would behave that way. That makes sense,\u201d you know? And then showing them what that looks like. Because I think destabilization of our viewpoints is necessary. And while you can do it in fiction, poetry is almost the better genre for that.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah, I mean, and I think I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s the better genre. It just kind of depends on what people wanna read, I suppose. But I mean, that\u2019s kind of why I\u2019ve written this prose stuff from the perspective of the poet K, because I\u2019m such a poet, I have to write prose about poetry. But I also think, as you were saying, when you\u2019re trying to break down that experience for people, it can be quite challenging for them to hear.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And that\u2019s been really interesting because I\u2019ve not obviously had this experience until recently of reading my work out to an audience in which I\u2019m saying things that they\u2019re not sure how to respond. Which is when you have illness or disability, we experience that all day long. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: People are like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re too young for that. Oh, but you look really great! Oh, but you\u2019re really strong. Oh, but you\u2019re&#8230;.\u201d You know. \u201cOh, aren\u2019t you so positive? Oh, I\u2019ve learned all these things from you.\u201d Right? All these\u2014 [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: You get that all day long. But then when you\u2019re reading your work, you actually kind of have the floor.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And you have a way of distilling what you wanna communicate, but also what you want to feel yourself about what you\u2019ve experienced. And that\u2019s what\u2019s interesting about this kind of more memoir-y stuff I\u2019m doing in the third person is I\u2019m like, I\u2019m slightly taking control of the way to think about some of these things that have been quite troubling or quite&#8230;. Yeah, I can kind of make it happen. Again, I don\u2019t change it, but it\u2019s changed in my line of sight, which is, I think, another thing that, you know, it\u2019s almost like some people, I find, think that because you\u2019re ill, you never change your mind about anything, or you\u2019ve always got this view of everything. And it\u2019s like, no, I feel like it\u2019s made me more uncertain about many things, but kind of in another way okay with that. But it takes a lot of work to be okay with that, so! [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, yeah. Alice Wong, one of the things she had said in our interview was about how, for the disabled person, everything is an uncertainty. Like, it\u2019s an uncertainty that you\u2019re going to like, you know, get fed today. There\u2019s so many uncertainties. And it\u2019s actually true of everyone, but most of us are able to ignore it, you know?<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Most of us can pretend that the job we do tomorrow, [chuckles], that we\u2019ll get up and go to work tomorrow, and we\u2019ll still have a job, and we\u2019ll still have all these things. And then, in fact, none of us know if that is, if that\u2019s, we don\u2019t know if we\u2019re going to get hit by a bus tomorrow. You know, there\u2019s so many things that are uncertain in the world, and you have to, you can\u2019t ignore it when you\u2019re a disabled per\u2014 Or I should also mention terminal illness, because Arabella Proffers also had been on our show. She has terminal cancer. And she\u2019s said to me very similar things that people don\u2019t know. You\u2019re like, \u201cHi, I\u2019m dying of cancer.\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cOh!\u201d They don\u2019t know what to do with that. You know, it\u2019s such a disruption.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. And I think that\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been thinking a lot about, is the symbol, you know, symbolizing something for someone else. The difference between my insight or what you\u2019re describing, the insight into existence [chuckles] versus symbolizing the insight into existence for someone else, which is a very different thing.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And I think that that\u2019s something that I\u2019ve been thinking a lot about, is how to con-, how to do that. And in the end of the story that I was just reading from, K is reflecting upon how Notre-Dame de Paris and Quasimodo and the way Quasimodo is perceived is in part what saved Notre-Dame Cathedral from being torn down. And she wonders, like, what is it to have what\u2019s going on with your body symbolize something and save a national treasure? Like&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: What\u2019s up with that? Like, [laughs]. So, why is it, why are these corollaries so powerful? That\u2019s one of the questions that she asks at the end. And I mean, we kind of know why. Because at the end of the day, I think we\u2019re all afraid of death, and we\u2019re all really, really afraid of, you know, of any kind of dependency.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Even though, as you say, we\u2019re all already dependent on each other, even if we try to shield ourselves in every possible way. But yeah, I mean, I completely agree with the way you\u2019ve described that.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: It\u2019s a beautiful thing that I think the work that you\u2019re doing. And of course, you were a poet long before this aspect of your poetry has come about. And so, as we\u2019re, we have about five minutes left in the podcast, I wonder if you can say a bit about how the experience of being a poet, has it changed at all as you\u2019ve moved from the earlier works to works post this diagnosis? Is it the same? Is it different? In what ways?<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah, I mean, I think it\u2019s really interesting \u2018cause I\u2019m editing my next poetry collection \u2018cause I have to give it to my editor. And obviously the stuff was written before I was diagnosed but when I was experiencing things that I couldn\u2019t explain. And so, the angle on it is there. It\u2019s almost like, and so, you see certain things in your work that are kind of latent. And when you have an illness like Parkinson\u2019s that accumulates and degenerates over a long period of time, you kind of see your perspective on the world, I think, being affected by that. I mean, I do think it\u2019s there. It\u2019s just not directly being addressed in quite the same way that I\u2019m addressing it in some of these pieces.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: In my more recent work, I\u2019ve been working on a kind of poetic novel type thing, and it certainly comes up in that. But I\u2019m trying\u2014not trying\u2014it just is part of it because it\u2019s already there as opposed to being in the foreground like those title pieces I said. So, I mean, I kind of anticipate vacillating between it being the stated aim and the thing that\u2019s around. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s ever gonna not be around, obviously.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: It\u2019s like figure and background, you know?<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I also think when you can\u2019t, when you can\u2019t walk or you can\u2019t walk far, or when you can only walk in pain and you\u2019re someone who\u2019s a writer who\u2019s used to being able to do that, that is like a really powerful thing that has transformed how I think about space and time and energy. I mean, all of these things that we think about with crip time, you know, it has totally changed my perception of that in that some of the things that I thought were so, I now know are so about [unclear].<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>BOTH: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: You know? So, I\u2019m kind of like aha, you know? So, I mean, I guess as a poet, you kind of have these philosophies kind of inbuilt about the nature of reality and all these sorts of questions. And when I was first diagnosed, I kind of made a list of things that I thought were, I had going for me basically. And one of them was, well, I love arts and the humanities, so I kind of have a philosophy of life worked out. So, at least I\u2019ve got that! [laughs] So\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: This is to sell the <i>Medical Humanities<\/i>, right?<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [laughing] We have a philosophy of life.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. And the philosophy is we have to keep asking questions and thinking it through and talking to each other, you know? It\u2019s not like a final, final moment, you know.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And that what\u2019s so valuable about it \u2018cause you have to connect in order to do it.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And here at the <i>Medical Humanities<\/i>, the Journal, we don\u2019t actually publish poetry. It\u2019s a research journal, but we do, we have published pieces talking about research using poetry for various things to, in grief processing, in I think there was one about cancer patients. I\u2019ve kind of a little bit lost track. But one of the things I was asked early on is, \u201cWell, why don\u2019t you also publish poetry?\u201d And I said, \u201cWell, because I love poetry, and I don\u2019t think an academic journal is quite, [chuckles] is quite where it needs to be.\u201d But what I do respect is grappling with it as an actual tool around which we can talk about other kinds of things. So, for instance, it\u2019s not just a poem because it\u2019s a poem, but that poetry, as is true of many of the humanities, also gets at things like history and sociability and community. And because the <i>Medical Humanities<\/i> is not just a work, it\u2019s a connection. We believe that the <i>Medical Humanities<\/i> is a great connection for social justice and accessibility and all sorts of other things for some of the same reasons that poetry is, right? It makes a point of connection between people and between subjects, which I think is really powerful.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Absolutely. And I think the thing that poetry does is it shows you that there\u2019s more than one thing going on at the same time, which [inaudible; crosstalk].<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes. And more than one interpretation.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Yeah. And we definitely know that\u2019s true in our experiences, as you described with the way your novel is set up.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: And I think I\u2019m just&#8230; I\u2019m just a keen believer now, certainly, that they really need us.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: The medics, the researchers, they really, really need, they really need us. And I\u2019ve seen a lot of transformative conversations happen when people are opened up to these sorts of viewpoints.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: So, hopefully that will just keep building momentum.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Well, like I always tell people, if you don\u2019t, if medicine doesn\u2019t have a human at the center of it, then it\u2019s not really medicine. You\u2019ve done something wrong. So, the humanities is a way of centering the human, and I\u2019m so glad that we all get to be part of it together. Thank you so much for being with us, Kimberly.<\/p>\n<p>CAMPANELLO: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Thank all of you for listening and being part of the conversation. There will be a transcript on our blog of today\u2019s show, and we hope to see you next time.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<!--TrendMD v2.4.8--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A Discussion with Kimberly Campanello Kimberly Campanello, an academic, creative writer, and poet,\u00a0was diagnosed with Young Onset Parkinson&#8217;s in 2021. She has been awarded a Developing Your Creative Practice Grant by Arts Council England to support her writing of chronic illness and disability. Campanello is presently Professor of Poetry at the University of Leeds, and [&#8230;]<\/p>\n<p><a class=\"btn btn-secondary understrap-read-more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2023\/10\/26\/on-poetry-disability-and-the-power-of-medical-humanities\/\">Read More&#8230;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":345,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[15029],"tags":[15141],"class_list":["post-3718","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcasts","tag-podcast"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>On Poetry, Disability, and the Power of Medical Humanities - Medical Humanities<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Brandy Schillace speaks to Kimberly Campanello about poetry, disability, and the power of medical humanities to make connections.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3718\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"On Poetry, Disability, and the Power of Medical Humanities - 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