{"id":3412,"date":"2022-07-21T10:00:48","date_gmt":"2022-07-21T09:00:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3412"},"modified":"2022-07-19T18:57:02","modified_gmt":"2022-07-19T17:57:02","slug":"posthumanism-and-the-livingbodiesobject-project","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2022\/07\/21\/posthumanism-and-the-livingbodiesobject-project\/","title":{"rendered":"Posthumanism and the LivingBodiesObject Project"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong>Podcast with Stuart Murray and Amelia DeFalco in conversation with EIC Brandy Schillace<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-3414 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"Living Bodies Project\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-scaled.jpg 2560w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-300x200.jpg 300w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-768x512.jpg 768w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-640x427.jpg 640w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>Today we are pleased to speak with Stuart Murray, Professor of Contemporary Literatures and Film, and Amelia DeFalco, Associate Professor of Medical Humanities in the School of English, University of Leeds. We at <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> have been following a new project they are both working on, LivingBodiesObjects (Twitter: <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/lbobjects?lang=en\">@LBObjects<\/a><\/strong>), and today they provide us with some insight into this ground-breaking (and mind-mending) work. We\u2019ll talk about what the term \u201ctranshumanism\u201d has come to mean, its social justice implications, and ways that the medical humanities seek to bridge gaps. Transcript follows below!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<style type=\"text\/css\">\r\n       .errordiv { padding:10px; margin:10px; border: 1px solid #555555;color: #000000;background-color: #f8f8f8; width:500px; }#advanced_iframe {visibility:visible;opacity:1;}#ai-layer-div-advanced_iframe p {height:100%;margin:0;padding:0}<\/style><script type=\"text\/javascript\">  var ai_iframe_width_advanced_iframe = 0;  var ai_iframe_height_advanced_iframe = 0;var aiIsIe8=false;var aiOnloadScrollTop=\"true\";\r\nif (typeof aiReadyCallbacks === 'undefined') {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];  \r\n} else if (!(aiReadyCallbacks instanceof Array)) {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];\r\n}    function aiShowIframeId(id_iframe) { jQuery(\"#\"+id_iframe).css(\"visibility\", \"visible\");    }    function aiResizeIframeHeight(height) { aiResizeIframeHeight(height,advanced_iframe); }    function aiResizeIframeHeightId(height,width,id) {aiResizeIframeHeightById(id,height);}<\/script><iframe loading=\"lazy\" id=\"advanced_iframe\"  name=\"advanced_iframe\"  src=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/bmjpodcasts\/posthumanism-and-the-livingbodiesobject-project?in=bmjpodcasts\/sets\/medical-humanities-podcast\"  width=\"560\"  height=\"315\"  frameborder=\"0\"  border=\"0\"  allowtransparency=\"true\"  allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\"  style=\";width:560;height:315;\" ><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">var ifrm_advanced_iframe = document.getElementById(\"advanced_iframe\");var hiddenTabsDoneadvanced_iframe = false;\r\nfunction resizeCallbackadvanced_iframe() {}function aiChangeUrl(loc) {}<\/script>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Dr Amelia DeFalco<\/strong> is the Principal Investigator of Imagining Posthuman Care. Amelia is Associate Professor of Medical Humanities in the School of English, University of Leeds. Her research focuses on contemporary cultural depictions of ageing, vulnerability and care, particularly in relation to technology. She is author of Imagining Care: Responsibility, Dependency, and Canadian Literature (University of Toronto Press, 2016) and Uncanny Subjects: Aging in Contemporary Narrative (Ohio State University Press, 2010), essays on cultural representations of ageing, disability, gender, care, technology and the posthuman, and co-editor of Ethics and Affects in the Fiction of Alice Munro (Palgrave, 2018). She is the Co-I of two Wellcome-funded research projects, Imagining Technologies for Disability Futures and LivingBodiesObjects (beginning January 2022). She is currently writing a monograph, Curious Kin: Fictions of Posthuman Care, and co-editing a Special Issue of Senses and Society on the theme of affective technotouch. <\/em><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/AmeliaDefalco\"><em>@AmeliaDefalco<\/em><\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Stuart Murray<\/strong> is Professor of Contemporary Literatures and Film in the School of English at the University of Leeds, where he is also the Director of the Leeds Centre for Medical Humanities. His research focuses on contemporary cultural depictions of disability and mental health, particularly in relation to technology, cultural theory and ideas of futurity. He has worked extensively with disability communities and is committed to disability inclusion in research. Stuart is the author or editor of 10 books, the most recent being <\/em>Disability and the Posthuman: Bodies, Technology and Cultural Futures<em> (Liverpool University Press, 2020). In 2008, he was the founding Editor of Liverpool UP\u2019s <\/em>Representations: Health, Disability, Culture and Society<em> monograph series, and currently he is one of the Editors of Bloomsbury\u2019s new book series <\/em>Medical and Health Humanities: Critical Interventions<em> and on the Editorial Board of <\/em>BMJ Medical Humanities<em>. Stuart\u2019s next book, <\/em>Medical Humanities and Disability Studies: Beyond Disciplines<em>, will be published by Bloomsbury in 2022.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3><strong>TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/h3>\n<p>DR BRANDY SCHILLACE: Hello, and welcome back to the <em>Medical Humanities Podcast<\/em>. This is Brandy Schillace, and I\u2019m the Editor-in-Chief. And today I have two guests with me, Stuart Murray, who was on before with us to talk about the LivingBodiesObjects Project, and also Amelia DeFalco, both of them in the School of English and also in the Medical Humanities Research Cluster at the University of Leeds. Thank you both for joining me.<\/p>\n<p>DR STUART MURRAY: Thanks very much, Brandy.<\/p>\n<p>DR AMELIA DEFALCO: Hello.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Hello! [laughs] Now, Stuart, you\u2019ve been on before, and so, and you\u2019re also on our editorial board here at <em>Medical Humanities<\/em>. But Amelia, I was wondering if you could introduce yourself as well for those of our listeners who might not be as familiar with your work.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Sure. So, I\u2019m an Associate Professor in Medical Humanities, as you mentioned, located in the School of English, working mostly on the contemporary, specifically on literature and film, care, and increasingly, the posthuman.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: That\u2019s fantastic. And Stuart, of course, I\u2019ll have you give a brief introduction just in case people are joining us for the first time and haven\u2019t had a chance to get to know you before.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Thanks. So, I\u2019m Stuart Murray, and I work in many of the same areas as Amelia. Actually, we find ourselves in a lot of meetings and conversations together. So, I work particularly on depictions, representations of disability, and increasingly, on the technologized body and posthumanism.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes, that\u2019s fantastic. And of course, I know what posthumanism is, and I\u2019ve been really interested in it for a long time, particularly from the, you know, through the lens of Disability Studies. But I was wondering if you could say a few words to those in our audience who might not be familiar with posthumanism. What does it really mean when we talk about this?<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Ooh. Do you wanna go first, Amelia?<\/p>\n<p>ALL: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Well, the&#8230;. I guess one thing to keep in mind is that there are many posthumanisms, so it can be used to signify a wide range of approaches to embodiment, longevity, technology, and the more-than-human world. The way that I, the aspect of posthumanism that I\u2019m interested in, which is often referred to as critical posthumanism\u2014often to kind of differentiate from the more kind of transhumanist area, which embraces body modification as a kind of way to elude vulnerability\u2014that the critical posthuman perspective is helpful for me for thinking about well, the shorthand is often in decentering the human in theories of living and being and knowing. But it also foregrounds embodiment, embeddedness, the connections between, and the not just interconnections, but intra-connections. And those are the areas that I\u2019m particularly interested in, the degree to which an incredible array of bodies, human and more-than, are inevitably connected and entangled is the favored word of posthumanism.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right. Well, because I think a lot of, one of the things that is true is that humanism, obviously, kind of gives it away, right? Humanism makes human the center of the world, center of everything. It\u2019s very, it\u2019s a kind of well, it\u2019s not dissimilar, in fact, of the way that things were looked at in the 19th century, right? The human is the top, it\u2019s the best thing ever, and that\u2019s what we focus on. Of course, the downside of moving away from humanism is the fear that we will, that the people who are already disenfranchized will then become less centered than they already are. And so, I think it\u2019s interesting to say posthumanism and transhumanism isn\u2019t saying humans don\u2019t matter. It\u2019s almost the opposite. It\u2019s saying that we need to center all human beings in their relationships to the world, to the environment, to each other, to technology, to society, to all the things that we\u2019re part of. Would you say that that\u2019s kind of an important differentiation to make?<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Absolutely. I think that\u2019s a key point, because there are many ways that posthumanism can potentially, can be alienating for, as you say, for modes of activism that are looking to increase inclusion. Because if it, if there is this sense of moving towards what some have called this horizontalizing of the ontological plane, right, where there\u2019s, you\u2019re kind of moving away any kind, from hierarchy to the point where there\u2019s no, the anthropocentricism is completely discarded, then what happens to those efforts, right\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: \u2014for inclusion if there\u2019s no longer any human? But I think some of the most exciting work happening in posthumanism, whether it\u2019s kind of termed posthumanism or not, is the work of Black and Indigenous scholars who are, you know, have been interrogating the very idea of the human and demonstrating the degree to which it\u2019s always been a exclusionary construct and one\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm. White, Western.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Yeah. And one that, I think a lot of them suggest, can\u2019t really be rehabilitated. So, we have to find other modes of thinking.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right. And one of the things that, one of the criticisms I\u2019ve heard leveled at posthumanism is, well, don\u2019t we already have a society that says material objects are more important than people, that money is more important than people? That, you know, why do we want to promote something which suggests somehow, you\u2019re taking humans out of the equation again? And so, I think that\u2019s why I\u2019m leaning on this, and I\u2019d love to hear you say a few words about this, Stuart, about when you\u2019re, when, in fact, it can be a really a good way of honoring these systems and saying, no, we are not, in fact, saying somehow people don\u2019t matter, but rather almost the opposite.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Yes, because I think like Amelia, I would\u2019ve immediately gone for the word the \u201cdecentering\u201d as part of understanding posthumanism\u2019s critical practice. And what I think is so effective there, then, is precisely the kind of assemblages and networks\u2014which are two other big posthumanist phrases\u2014that can be built as a consequence of thinking through that decentering. And that\u2019s where I think posthumanism and the Medical Humanities is so interesting and posthumanism and medicine and health more generally. Because if you look back to early models of the Medical Humanities, where much of the reason given for the involvement of history, of art as therapy, or ethics was precisely this idea that those subjects humanized what was otherwise a process of medical science.<\/p>\n<p>And I feel that there\u2019s been great profit in using those decentering practices to think about, for example, how ideas of wholeness were constructed around the body, and not just the body. Ideas of wholeness were constructed around the physician, say. So, the idea that there was a singular physician looking at a singular patient and trying to think of their body in terms of restitution or recovery as the primary outcome of health. I think that the critical turn in lots of subjects, whether that be Medical Humanities or posthumanism or something analogous like Animal Studies, I think that\u2019s done great work, particularly in our subject, particularly for helping us to understand what we might think of as cultures of health, yeah. Interconnectedness, human animals, non-human animals. So, I absolutely get the points about suspicion. I think there can be a real problem, as Amelia says, in making an assumption that you can just jump away, I think in particular, from structures and communities of vulnerable populations. So, I think it\u2019s a balance then between working out the incredible effectiveness of the decentering practices, but not being so lost in abstraction that you leave behind the people you would want to talk most about.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I think that maybe one of the issues for me is I don\u2019t think it needs to be so much about decentering the human as decentering the center. The center that has always been, which tends to be White and Western and frequently masculine, is what I think is valuable to decenter or to queer, as it sometimes posited. This idea that you can pitch back at wholeness, using wholeness as a word. I think this is great in the concept, or I\u2019m sorry, in the landscape of Disability Studies. What does it mean to be whole?<\/p>\n<p>So, for instance, I was just on a, helping with a book tour. Lindsey Fitzharris just wrote a book called <em>The Facemaker<\/em> about plastic surgery in World War I. And one of the tensions that she discovered in that book and that I think is really fascinating is the difference between arriving at functionality\u2014so, you\u2019ve been injured, you\u2019ve had your jaw blown off or something\u2014arriving at functionality versus continuing for another 30 surgeries to try and arrive at a space where you think you are whole enough for society. And this concept that you can\u2019t return to society unless you achieve a kind of normative wholeness, right? And this was difficult for soldiers who lose limbs or other amputees. But it also, I think, people who are in wheelchairs, they don\u2019t consider themselves not whole. [chuckles] But yet medicine, as you point out, has a tendency to center on this idea of the whole, perfect human in ways that\u2019s really problematic and, in fact, stigmatizes and causes all kinds of other problems.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: So, really good example of the First World War, I think. And to take up the point you rightly make, it\u2019s not entirely about decentering the human because it\u2019s about decentering structures as much as anything, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: And I think there\u2019s been great writing from historians on disability in the First World War. I think of the work of somebody like Julie Anderson. And what\u2019s so effective there is not just to see how medical practices followed this idea of a stress on a recovery of wholeness, but how that equally was built into governments and state policies of public health.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: And when those things come into play, you\u2019re absolutely right, Brandy. It\u2019s the point, isn\u2019t it, about, you know, those are not structures of the human per se. Those are structures of governance and structures and systems of health care. So, I think when we track that back to what we mean by posthumanism, it\u2019s carrying forward a critical impetus of the positive offsetting, I think: what we can see positively from those processes, and certainly, the intersections between them and Medical Humanities. I think what Amelia and I would say working on the project as we are, LivingBodiesObjects, is that we\u2019re not over-focusing on the posthuman, but it\u2019s definitely something which is making the approach of the project. You know, it\u2019s giving it insight.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right. Well, and let\u2019s return then to LivingBodiesObjects, which is in process. This is something that\u2019s really unique in the sense that we\u2019re not waiting until you have a thing, but rather, we\u2019re investigating and engaging as you create and come up with and dig and do all of the things around that project. So, could you tell us a little bit about the launch, about where you are, about where you\u2019re headed, and where we are in this particular space of time?<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Sure. We had the launch last month, and it was wonderful. And it was wonderful for lots of reasons. And I was thinking back to the conversation I had with you, Brandy, before we had the launch, because we were talking a lot about ideas of research, how it started, why it started, what you took for granted, and all those things that are aligned with that. And so, one of the things that we\u2019ve been doing for many months was talking in those open terms. We talked about the whole idea of pausing before you start.<\/p>\n<p>But with the launch, of course, we were tasked with lots of people coming to see things that we had made and for us to be able to articulate why we had made these things to showcase the project and in order to engage with our audience. So, what was one of the, I think, really powerful things about it was the way in which we felt challenged to turn our thinking into making and to come up with a set of exhibits, which is precisely what we did, that we could point to, if you like, and say to the audience, \u201cGo touch these, go engage with these, and you will see what it is that we\u2019re trying to do.\u201d And so, I think for the whole team, that challenge was very, very meaningful in the questions that it asked of us about putting into practice, putting into making, the whole ideas about living and bodies and object and research systems that we\u2019ve been talking about for three months or so.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Hmm. Mmhmm. Yeah, I can see that. And Amelia, how, I mean, this is actually really fascinating to me how once we put those, all those words together, right\u2014&#8221;living, bodies, objects\u201d\u2014it elucidates sort of what you were saying about why we might want to use a posthuman or transhuman lens or a decentered lens as we approach a project like this. Because, of course, research projects tend to have a certain kind of expected center that is unfortunately the same kinds of centering on White and Western ideas. And so, do you wanna say a bit about that? Because I feel like there\u2019s ways in which this project and posthumanism could potentially have deep value for social justice. And of course, <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> as a journal is a social justice journal. So, can you tell a little bit about that and about your experiences of that?<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: I\u2019ll try. [laughs] So\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Sorry. That was like three questions. I\u2019m sorry. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Well, I mean, I\u2019ve been listening and just reflecting on what you were saying earlier, Brandy, and the way that Stuart responded. And just, I wonder, I mean, in some ways, I guess what I was going to say about the project maybe links back to what you were saying earlier about kind of questioning the degree to which this idea, the decentering of the human, is something, is consistently what the posthuman is about or should or wants to be about. But I wonder, in that case, if it\u2019s kind of helpful to think about \u201cthe human,\u201d in quotation marks for the entire phrase in the article there being so important. And it has to do with the notion of singularity, not \u201cthe singularity,\u201d but the idea of the human as a kind of identifiable, singular entity, right?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: And the degree to which\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And a whole, you know, and a whole idea, at that, right? Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: A whole. And as&#8230;and which, as you rightly point out, is, you know, it tends to be racialized, gendered, etc., in a very particular way, right, that we\u2019re all very familiar with. So, I think for me, that\u2019s a part of the posthuman that\u2019s integral, right? Is the interrogation of the human as a singular, as a discrete, as kind of, and thinking, as Stuart was saying about networks, assemblages, but also, and ecologies, right? The degree to which there\u2019s a kind of constant connection that requires addressing or acknowledgment and the degree to which there\u2019s a real loss when one focuses on, say, dyads or triads, the kind of, like the doctor-patient relationship, for example, that Stuart was talking about is a place to start, but the entire structure and the entire kind of larger ecology has to be taken into account.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: And so, coming back to our project, I think the fact that the words, you know, we\u2019re not using articles, but also, if you see the way that we\u2019ve written it, there are no spaces between the terms.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: I think it\u2019s partly getting at the idea of kind of that kind of mesh and entanglement and the degree to which LivingBodiesObjects is as much a kind of interr-, a kind of question or interrogation as a statement. And thinking about the degree to which these blur and blend and can\u2019t always be differentiated and how we might investigate that. And as Stuart said, it\u2019s an unusual project in how open-ended it is, and which is incredibly liberating and exciting. And it also can be very daunting.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I was gonna say overwhelming, maybe.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO and SCHILLACE: [chuckle]<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Yeah, it really can be, but in a very positive way. But it feels, you know, there is a kind of potential limitlessness that\u2019s, you know, many people talk about how useful boundaries are or limits are for kind of creative practice, right? Having to kind of come up with creative solutions to barriers or boundaries or limitations. And in this case, the openness is perhaps one of the biggest challenges.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: But we are very lucky in being, in having such a diverse team in terms of disciplines, but also that includes a creative facilitator. And soon we\u2019ll have a staff member devoted to documentation. So, there\u2019s a kind of range of skill sets and experiences, and that\u2019s been, for me, the most exciting thing so far is that we\u2019re kind of being pushed into areas that we, that speaker of myself [laughs], I\u2019m not as comfortable with initially, but have been incredibly illuminating for thinking about the topic, making things together, imagining kind of material, the way the material world might address some of the topics that we want to consider. And then putting something together and then seeing it as a thing, as a living thing was incredibly satisfying.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I\u2019m really\u2014<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Brandy?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Oh no, I was just gonna, if it\u2019s okay, I was gonna pick up on one of the, one of your comments about social justice, if I can. Yeah?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Because I remember after you and I last talked, I took away a set of ideas around justice as you were framing it and as I know that the journal frames it. And one of the things I was thinking of post-our launch was, well, when something might be overwhelming or when it\u2019s open ended, how can that be a vehicle for justice, in the sense of it maybe not having the kind of boundaries that Amelia was talking about, the kind of materiality? And I was thinking back to the actual things we did in the launch, the things that we made.<\/p>\n<p>So, we have some mannequins and some body parts, for example, and we projected images on them of viruses and of living organisms. We had posters that were produced by putting the keywords from our project title into a AI generator. We had a series of physical objects that were mounted as if they were in an exhibition. And all of them, we came to realize, were provocations.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: And I think there was something in the way that we were not just asking, as it were, basic questions of our audience, that we were provoking them to think about these three key words. And I thought, well, yeah, this is connected. This can be connected to an idea of justice because the invitation to interrogate and to reflect, I think, can be a platform for the kind of justice within Medical Humanities work that I think we would want to happen.<\/p>\n<p>So, even if there is this hard work that needs to come with the open-ended-ness of the project, we get moments like that where you realize that the provocations you\u2019re making do become this space in which ideas and questions of justice, from which those questions might flow.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I think that that\u2019s, and actually, what I was gonna tag back to something Amelia said that now actually connects well with what you\u2019ve just said. So, you set this up for me brilliantly! But I love the concept of questioning quote-unquote \u201cthe human,\u201d Amelia. And I think, I used to work in a museum, so I worked in a medical museum. I did do exhibits, and I know the Wellcome Collection has its share of exhibits. And all the time when you\u2019re curating, you\u2019re setting yourself up to be like, \u201cI\u2019m telling you what\u2019s important,\u201d right? \u201cThis is \u2018the\u2019 history of \u2018the\u2019 human in \u2018the\u2019 medicine.\u201d And so, I think interrogating that and breaking that down is hugely important. So, if you created an exhibit where the people who see the exhibit get to go, \u201cNo, that doesn\u2019t mean that to me,\u201d [laughs] or \u201cI have questions\u201d or \u201cI think you should take this in another direction\u201d now, we\u2019re creating a space that is very different, that is doing a very different kind of work, that\u2019s asking people to create with you in this experiential space. And I think that\u2019s, I didn\u2019t get a chance to go to your launch or to the exhibit, as I was not in the right country, but\u2014[laughs] it makes it difficult\u2014but I do think that that\u2019s really a powerful thing. If you can invite people in to be part of that process, that in itself is opening a door to social justice because of course, it\u2019s what I always say at the journal that we want to speak with, not about. I wanna hear from, not talk at, not hear about. So, when you\u2019re inclusive in that way, and open ended in that way, I think it creates spaces for new things to happen. And in that sense, I love the idea that what we\u2019re really doing is saying, \u201cWhat is \u2018the\u2019 human, what is \u2018the\u2019 history, what is \u2018the\u2019 medicine?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: [chuckles] Well, I was thinking something really similar, Brandy, because one of the elements of the launch, one of the installations, as Stuart mentioned was a series of objects that were kind of displayed in a similar style to a museum exhibition. And I had recently developed an exhibition at our local Thackray Museum of Medicine here, and it was a really interesting experience to do the two back-to-back. Whereas with, as you say, working with the museum, I felt really tasked to tell the story, to tell, to at least explore a narrative, to develop a narrative that had a kind of consistency to it. In this case, what we did was create, include objects that had multiple potentially conflicting placards associated with them.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: And so, depending on your approach, you would get a different version, and then you could go around them and kind of chart your own response in relation to these. And some were quotations, some were descriptions and that were more or less obviously explicitly stemming from the object. So, using that one instance, there was a really clear sense of what was really different about what we were doing and the degree to which the project has facilitated a different kind of, a different mode of working than I\u2019d ever had the opportunity to explore before.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: So, I think it was very fortuitous that they were back-to-back [chuckles] \u2018cause I mean, it was the first time I\u2019d ever put an exhibition together in a museum. Prior to the launch anyway, I wouldn\u2019t have had that to compare it to. And then recently, the group, part of the LBO group, Stuart wasn\u2019t able to come, but we went to London last week to go to the Wellcome, and that was also a good reminder of the varied ways that an exhibition can tell stories and the way that within an exhibition itself there can be a kind of dialogue, a kind of speaking back to the conventions of display. So, I think, yeah, I think that\u2019s something we wanna carry forward as we continue.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah. Digital displays, actually, when I worked on an NIH-funded project, a big one at a museum in which we developed a digital project so that you could actually build your own narrative through it. You could almost give your own, take yourself through the museum in the ways that you wanted to. But, and obviously, there\u2019s limits to that, too. But I think increasingly, especially with this new virtual world in which we live, post-COVID, that there\u2019s some expectation that there\u2019s gonna be abilities to engage, right? That we\u2019re looking for point and click options that you might not have originally had those expectations. So, it\u2019s a good time for a project like this. Though I will say I\u2019ve had people ask me, \u201cSo, what is their project?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And I do find answering that question is somewhat complex. I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, it\u2019s about being about things.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO and SCHILLACE: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: But that is part of the joy of the project, too. Did you wanna say a bit more about that specifically? Stuart, I know that we grappled with this some the last time, and I figure at each stage you\u2019re gonna know a little bit more about where you\u2019re headed.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: I think so. I mean, it\u2019s true. A slight anecdote, but when we were successful getting the funding for the grant, the university press office said they\u2019d like to release a statement about it. And they asked us what the project was about, in a very press office type way. You know, they needed a hook, and they needed to be saying, well, who benefits from this and in what way? And we had this rather problematic back and forth about me not being able to supply them with the kind of taglines that they wanted.<\/p>\n<p>I think that you described it very well, actually, about the about. But one of the things that the launch did was definitely make some of that more concrete. I mean, because listening to what you\u2019re saying and you not knowing the details of it, you\u2019re nevertheless talking about things we did.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: So, we did have a VR experience. We did have an incredible amount of kind of digital input. We had a dancer who danced to body sounds, who was dancing to a heartbeat of one of our team members. And then when she danced faster, the heartbeat increased. And whilst that is a certain amount of playfulness, it\u2019s also going back to those points we\u2019re trying to make about how bodies operate in the world. So, I guess what we feel is that we\u2019ve put together four or five months in which we\u2019ve kind of done a deep dive, not just into some foundational ideas of bodies and objects and the whole idea of living, but how you do the research on them.<\/p>\n<p>And the next phase is to start working with specific partners to kind of both continue and develop that. So, from July, we\u2019ll be working with a theatre company in Leeds called Interplay Theatre, who work a lot around sensory theatre, and we\u2019re really excited about the kind of dynamics that are going to emerge from that. But we\u2019re still being guided by that kind of openness. You know, we\u2019ve had initial conversations with them, and we want to go where they want to take us, in many ways. But we\u2019ve got a set up now. We know how that can start. We can build on what we\u2019ve done. So, we are finding out about it.<\/p>\n<p>But I think the fact we made things that really spoke of our work has been incredibly enabling because I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll be able to provide you with some of the photographs of what we did.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, I\u2019d love that.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: And hopefully, they can go with, you know, when you put this podcast on the site. And that will give people listening now a sense of what we\u2019re doing. And the website is only, is not very far away, I was told today as well, actually.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: So, that\u2019s gonna be really great.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Well, don\u2019t you think in some ways, I mean, you\u2019ve made things with your bodies. I mean, that\u2019s, it\u2019s a very different thing from coming up with an idea in your mind. And I think there\u2019s a tactile and haptic response that goes into creation of that sort. And so, I\u2019m not at all surprised that it had those kinds of outcomes for you, but also that that\u2019s what this project is trying to get at the heart of.<\/p>\n<p>I will say two things. One, absolutely, we will include images, and we also do a transcript of all of our podcasts, so that\u2019ll be available as well on the blog that\u2019s attendant. But two, doctor, sorry, the <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> project, as a journal, is also attempting to grapple with those questions. How do you research? How do you, if research itself has structures that you need to get around, how do you research, how to do research [laughs] when you\u2019re coming from this? It\u2019s sort of like trying to see the back of your own head.<\/p>\n<p>But we\u2019re doing something like that at the <em>Medical Humanities Journal<\/em> as well, which is there\u2019s huge problems with the fact that publishing as an industry, and academic publishing in particular, is exclusionary by its very nature. It\u2019s hard to get in. It\u2019s hard to, there\u2019s paywalls, even, and there\u2019s paywalls whether it\u2019s open access or not. It\u2019s either at the user end or at the producer end. So, you\u2019re either paying to open it as an author, or you\u2019re paying to access it as a reader. And that means that we\u2019re not hearing all of the voices, and it is very difficult. How do you get into press? How do you? You can say all day that you want diversity in publication, but how do you actually make that happen? So, we\u2019re having to deconstruct and work around what the, what publishing normally looks like, and that\u2019s partly why we\u2019re doing path to publication now, which works with people from the Global South. But also, we\u2019re having an issue on neurodiversity written entirely by neurodiverse people, and we\u2019re taking that through this two-year process in order to get them in a place where they can publish. Because you almost have to deconstruct the very nature of what you do in order to achieve the ends that you want for the purposes of diversity.<\/p>\n<p>So, I wanna just ask one last question, and then I\u2019ll let you guys go. I really appreciate your time. And that\u2019s this. Even though at the moment you\u2019re still working out exactly what these research questions will be, what do you hope that the outcomes are? What are your larger goals for opening up these kinds of conversations? What do you hope will achieve by doing a project like this?<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: Just for my part, I will say that it\u2019s not all about kind of gazing towards the horizon in which anything is possible. I mean, my hopes are that at the end of the three years, in many ways, we will have got a kind of critical methodology that we can then turn to, or turn into rather, research questions. That there will be some element of health experience, some kind of dynamic of health that suddenly, we realize we have critical tools to discuss.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: And they hopefully will be not just about research and publication or about research that takes different forms but will be able to look at whatever they are, those texts, those oral histories, those kind of, you know, different kinds of manifestations of health. And we\u2019ll be able to say, because we\u2019ve done what we\u2019ve done, we can now do, if you like, phase two. We can now look towards taking forward this methodology. So, that\u2019s on the one hand. The other thing is that we hope we can then turn round and face our university and say, \u201cWell, look. You can do research in this way. You can include these people. You don\u2019t have to abide by these metrics. Or maybe you do. I don\u2019t know,\u201d you know.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: But you can have a research environment which doesn\u2019t have to simply perpetuate current dynamics, which is, as you said very eloquently that are frequently exclusionary.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Exactly. So, I think that this is a really brilliant way for you guys, the way you\u2019re opening this up. And I\u2019m really excited that <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> as the podcast can be part of this and that we can keep having these conversations. So, if you\u2019re just listening to this podcast for the first time, we had Stuart on before, and we will be having additional ones in the future. There will be other colleagues, other colleagues of Amelia and Stuart, that will take part and tell us more about this experience as it moves forward into the future of what it\u2019s going to produce and how. So, thank you both for being on here. I really do appreciate your time. And I know everyone here has really enjoyed listening to you. Anything to leave us with?<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Well, I\u2019m very excited, as Stuart mentioned, for the website to, [chuckles] to happen, so that we have a place where we can collect and share all of these various outputs, which are for me, for me anyway, rather unconventional outputs.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: You know, I\u2019m pretty accustomed to the more conventional kind of text-based work that you would find in journals and books. But the way that we\u2019re incorporating a degree of kind of embodied practice has been really exciting for me. And finding ways to make those available is part of the challenge of the project, and the website will be the first port of call for that. You can follow us on our Twitter, which Stuart knows. [laughs] Sorry, Stuart.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>MURRAY: It\u2019s @LBObjects.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: @LBObjects. And these are all kind of, I have to admit, quite nascent, you know. They\u2019re just coming into maturity soon we hope. But because we\u2019ve spent so much time really focusing on what ended up being called, I believe, the start before the start was our first period.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes. [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: So, we were focusing on our group as opposed to outward facing.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Which is again, super, super awesome and not done nearly enough. I think that\u2019s, it\u2019s fascinating. It\u2019s a project that\u2019s decentering the center, but it\u2019s also at the same time really centering on the people that are part of it. I think it\u2019s really brilliant.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: Well, it\u2019s been, I have to say, it\u2019s been a delight so far. And then as we work with Interplay, as Stuart mentioned, there will be, certainly be events happening that will be posted on that website that will be, some of which will likely be open to the public.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: So, please do stay posted if you\u2019re in the Leeds area, in the Yorkshire area. But we\u2019re also going to have all kinds of really wild and wonderful forms of documentation [laughs] available.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>DEFALCO: So, I would say, from now till the end of the year, things will be emerging quite rapidly.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: That\u2019s fantastic. That\u2019s fantastic. Well, I just appreciate having both of you on. Listeners, please tune in again, and thank you, as always, for being part of the conversation.<!--TrendMD v2.4.8--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Podcast with Stuart Murray and Amelia DeFalco in conversation with EIC Brandy Schillace Today we are pleased to speak with Stuart Murray, Professor of Contemporary Literatures and Film, and Amelia DeFalco, Associate Professor of Medical Humanities in the School of English, University of Leeds. We at Medical Humanities have been following a new project they [&#8230;]<\/p>\n<p><a class=\"btn btn-secondary understrap-read-more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2022\/07\/21\/posthumanism-and-the-livingbodiesobject-project\/\">Read More&#8230;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":345,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[15029],"tags":[15058],"class_list":["post-3412","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcasts","tag-podcasts"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Posthumanism and the LivingBodiesObject Project - Medical Humanities<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"EIC Brandy Schillace speaks to Stuart Murray and Amelia DeFalco about the LivingBodiesProject in today&#039;s podcast.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3412\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Posthumanism and the LivingBodiesObject Project - Medical Humanities\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"EIC Brandy Schillace speaks to Stuart Murray and Amelia DeFalco about the LivingBodiesProject in today&#039;s podcast.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3412\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Medical Humanities\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2022-07-21T09:00:48+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/07\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-scaled.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Chris Pak\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Chris Pak\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"29 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Chris Pak\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/0e11c1a9a0f1f9f2aa898a719652c44c\"},\"headline\":\"Posthumanism and the LivingBodiesObject Project\",\"datePublished\":\"2022-07-21T09:00:48+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412\"},\"wordCount\":6583,\"commentCount\":0,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/#organization\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/files\\\/2022\\\/07\\\/Murray-Stuart-and-Amelia-DeFalco-Posthumanism-and-the-LivingBodiesObject-Project-scaled.jpg\",\"keywords\":[\"podcasts\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Podcasts\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/blogs.bmj.com\\\/medical-humanities\\\/?p=3412\",\"name\":\"Posthumanism and the LivingBodiesObject Project - 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