{"id":3284,"date":"2022-03-04T10:00:17","date_gmt":"2022-03-04T09:00:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=3284"},"modified":"2022-03-18T10:25:08","modified_gmt":"2022-03-18T09:25:08","slug":"podcast-with-riva-lehrer-author-of-golem-girl-a-memoir","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2022\/03\/04\/podcast-with-riva-lehrer-author-of-golem-girl-a-memoir\/","title":{"rendered":"Podcast with Riva Lehrer, Author of Golem Girl: A Memoir"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong>Podcast with Riva Lehrer<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-3286 alignright\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-300x250.jpg\" alt=\"Riva Lehrer\" width=\"300\" height=\"250\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-300x250.jpg 300w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-768x640.jpg 768w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-1536x1281.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-2048x1708.jpg 2048w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-RIVA-3-640x534.jpg 640w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>Riva Lehrer is an artist, writer, and curator who focuses on the socially challenged body. Best known for representations of people whose physical embodiment, sexuality, or gender identity have long been stigmatized. Lehrer\u2019s memoir, <em>Golem Girl <\/em>(One World\/ Penguin Random House), won the 2020 Barbellion Prize for Literature and was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award.<\/p>\n<p>She is represented by Regal Hoffman &amp; Associates, NYC, and by Zolla\/Lieberman Gallery, Chicago.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Read <a href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2022\/02\/15\/golem-girl-a-memoir-by-riva-lehrer\/\"><strong>Dr. Isabella Watts&#8217; review of <em>Golem Girl <\/em><\/strong><\/a>on the <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> blog.<\/p>\n<h3><strong>Listen to the podcast below:<\/strong><\/h3>\n<style type=\"text\/css\">\r\n       .errordiv { padding:10px; margin:10px; border: 1px solid #555555;color: #000000;background-color: #f8f8f8; width:500px; }#advanced_iframe {visibility:visible;opacity:1;}#ai-layer-div-advanced_iframe p {height:100%;margin:0;padding:0}<\/style><script type=\"text\/javascript\">  var ai_iframe_width_advanced_iframe = 0;  var ai_iframe_height_advanced_iframe = 0;var aiIsIe8=false;var aiOnloadScrollTop=\"true\";\r\nif (typeof aiReadyCallbacks === 'undefined') {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];  \r\n} else if (!(aiReadyCallbacks instanceof Array)) {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];\r\n}    function aiShowIframeId(id_iframe) { jQuery(\"#\"+id_iframe).css(\"visibility\", \"visible\");    }    function aiResizeIframeHeight(height) { aiResizeIframeHeight(height,advanced_iframe); }    function aiResizeIframeHeightId(height,width,id) {aiResizeIframeHeightById(id,height);}<\/script><iframe loading=\"lazy\" id=\"advanced_iframe\"  name=\"advanced_iframe\"  src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/1222405282&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\"  width=\"560\"  height=\"315\"  frameborder=\"0\"  border=\"0\"  allowtransparency=\"true\"  allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\"  style=\";width:560;height:315;\" ><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">var ifrm_advanced_iframe = document.getElementById(\"advanced_iframe\");var hiddenTabsDoneadvanced_iframe = false;\r\nfunction resizeCallbackadvanced_iframe() {}function aiChangeUrl(loc) {}<\/script>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h4><strong>TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/h4>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-3285\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-Book-Cover-197x300.jpg\" alt=\"Golem Girl Book Cover\" width=\"220\" height=\"318\" \/>BRANDY SCHILLACE: Hello and welcome back to the <em>Medical Humanities Podcast<\/em>. I\u2019m Brandy Schillace, Editor in Chief of the <em>Medical Humanities Journal<\/em> for BMJ. Today, I\u2019m really excited to have with me Riva Lehrer, who\u2019s going to be talking to us about her memoir. It\u2019s a book called <em>Golem Girl<\/em>, and it has so much to offer and so much to say about the disability community, but also just being human and being seen as a valuable and worthwhile human being. And so, Riva, thank you so much for joining us.<\/p>\n<p>RIVA LEHRER: I\u2019m absolutely thrilled. I\u2019ve become a fan of the podcast, so thank you for having me.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Absolutely. So, this book has been really fascinating, and I think the book itself has had an interesting journey, even as you have had an interesting journey.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And of course, coming out in the middle of a pandemic, it\u2019s both unfortunate in some ways, right? Because launching a book in a pandemic is hard, but also, really indicative of so many things that you talk about and the hurdles and obstacles. And so, I was wondering, first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself and about this book journey.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Well, definitely, it\u2019s been an irony sandwich having a book come out about impairment. Yeah, so, bringing out a book about impairment and human fragility in the middle of a pandemic is not something I would recommend for the faint of heart.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: The book took me about eight years to write. Originally, it was just going to be a document for my family to describe my studio practice because what I really am, usually am, is an artist. I call myself a portraitist, but really, what I am is an artist who\u2019s trying to understand embodiment through the use of portraiture. I don\u2019t see myself as a traditional portrait painter at all. So, the way I got there is complex and completely tied in with my life as a disabled person. And as I went on and started trying to describe the book, I mean, I\u2019m sorry, describe my work for my family, I ended up, as I do in public talks, having to describe how I became who I was and went to do what I do, which is to do portraits of people who deal with stigma, which is what I really focus on. So, I\u2019m trying to describe this for my family, so they\u2019ll have something when I\u2019m no longer around. And I started to do research into my family to understand some things that I\u2019d never really thought about, went home, interviewed some family members thinking I was just gonna fill in some details. And they started telling me stories that had me absolutely on the floor, prone, you know, prone, looking up at the ceiling in astonishment. And then all of a sudden, it started to be a memoir.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, I did that, and my publisher my publisher is One World, a division of Penguin, and they focus on social justice. And they were so excited because I was the first person that I know of who was working on disability. They\u2019re mostly known for authors who are people of color dealing with race and national origin, things like that. So, they thought the book was just gonna do great guns and had a book tour planned. I was excited out of my mind. And then COVID.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-3287 \" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-CARRIE-SANDAHL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"330\" height=\"604\" \/>You know the beginning\u2014I\u2019m gonna date myself\u2014the beginning of Monty Python. There\u2019s a giant cartoon foot that comes down.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: It goes stomp, stomp, stomp!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I, yeah, I still have the imprint of the boot on my head.<\/p>\n<p>BOTH: [chuckle]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, that\u2019s what happened to the book, and it\u2019s been really hard. It\u2019s been hard.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, I completely understand, I mean, to a lesser degree. I launched mine in 2021 and similarly\u2014<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Oh!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes, so I feel. I feel you.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I\u2019m so sorry!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I do. I know! It\u2019s frustrating. It\u2019s actually one of the reasons why I have been doing so much with authors in this podcast for <em>Medical Humanities<\/em>. And if you\u2019re a regular listener, you\u2019ll know that we\u2019ve had several authors on, and we\u2019re going to be doing that more. Because these books that really grapple with art, with queer identity, with bodies, with disability, with coming to terms, with the self and the embodiment of just being alive are incredibly powerful, important social justice medical humanities books. And they are, they\u2019re threatened to be lost underneath all of the sort of landside of everything else that\u2019s going on. And so, that\u2019s one reason why I wanted you on here today, because this is a critical time for a book evaluating these things. Because now, we\u2019re all living in a world where we\u2019ve had to drastically reevaluate our bodies in space.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Well, it\u2019s been&#8230;oh, gosh, fascinating and horrifying, because I truly thought when the pandemic hit, I thought, OK. There had been this efflorescence of disability culture right beforehand. I mean, literally like, weeks beforehand, all of these amazing things had happened. A lot of things had come out in the <em>New York Times<\/em>. A lot of things had come out in the <em>New York Times<\/em> that were documenting art and film and performance, and just there\u2019d been an enormous grant that came through the Ford Foundation that I\u2019d been one of the recipients. It really looked like the doors were finally opening.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, the pandemic hits, and I think, all right, well, at least we\u2019re in place because they\u2019re gonna need us. Like, we are the people who know how to handle physical catastrophe, illness, strategizing how to do things when the old ways are just gone. Like, OK, we\u2019re ready. And instead, what I saw was this huge backlash!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, first, you know, in the early days of the pandemic, and I\u2019m sure Alice Wong spoke to this, they immediately told us\u2014I mean, there was no pussyfooting\u2014you\u2019re not important.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I understand.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: \u2014you know, the ladder, low on the ladder for getting treatment or a vaccine if and when it comes. And also, you might not be able to even see your doctor. You may not be able to get your normal medical equipment. Gee, sorry! But we gotta take care of the healthy 30-year-olds and make sure they\u2019re not gonna get hurt.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, we\u2019re all sitting there just horrified. And for instance, I\u2019m one of the people who fought incredibly hard here in Chicago when the vaccine started to be rolled out. Disabled people were nowhere, nowhere on the roster, just not at all.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And I started to call. I mean, I\u2019ve been here a long time, and some people know me. And I just went ballistic, and I was part of the team that got the city to change the protocol. But it\u2019s been&#8230;it\u2019s been heartbreaking also, I think, because everyone is so terrified.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-3288 \" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2022\/02\/Lehrer-Riva-TIM_OWL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"360\" height=\"393\" \/>LEHRER: The last thing they wanna look at is what it means to be disabled. And I\u2019ve noticed that articles about long COVID, they kind of come and go. Like, they\u2019ll start to talk about it. Then they\u2019ll go away for a really long time because nobody really wants to face the fact that all of a sudden, we\u2019re gonna have hundreds of thousands of new disabled people, and we don\u2019t know their trajectory at all.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: No, no. And there\u2019s no&#8230;. And it\u2019s interesting because I actually have been following that myself, and I feel as though the very nature of hesitance around taking articles or writing articles or reading articles about long COVID is part of a, it\u2019s also, well, sorry. I don\u2019t mean to be disarticulate here, but it\u2019s also part of our inability to face mortality too.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Oh, exactly.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Because you don\u2019t see articles talking about the death tolls. You don\u2019t see, people don\u2019t know about the death tolls. I actually had someone say to me, \u201cWell, at least they\u2019re lower now.\u201d And I was like, \u201cHave you been watching?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [laughs] Lower than what?!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Because they haven\u2019t, \u2018cause the articles, you know, the articles that were hitting very hard, they\u2019re not there now. And why not? Well, some of it is our human resil-, some of it is resilience-based, right? At some point you just can\u2019t live under that anymore, and you can\u2019t focus on it. But another is just we\u2019re terrified of long-term consequences where we live in a society of disposability. You throw something, and you get a new one, right?<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Right.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: We should be able to do those to bodies too, right? You should just be able to go to the doctor and medicine fixes you, and now it\u2019s right back to normal. But it\u2019s not back to normal. And I was trying to explain to someone that death and dying, losing someone is a lot more like an amputation. Like, you never, there is no normal that you go back to. And long COVID is turning out to be the same kind of thing. It\u2019s not a well, after this extended period of time, I will be back to normal. Normal isn\u2019t there.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Well, you know\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Doesn\u2019t mean anything, anyway. It\u2019s a weird word.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know, the language of medicine is always, the prefix re- is always in there.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Rehabilitation, you know, repair, renewal, restoration. I mean, there\u2019s so many. And it\u2019s this embedded fantasy that has always been there, that we have a permanent normal body and that healing is about regaining that permanent body.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And it\u2019s never been true.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And you know, I try and point out to people that we are always changing, that we have this strange idea that like, there\u2019s childhood change, there\u2019s puberty, adolescence change, there\u2019s a period between ah, 24 to 50 where we don\u2019t change. Huh?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [chuckling] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And then all of a sudden, 50 and, you know, this thing called middle age, where all of a sudden, we\u2019re noticing that we changed. And then the dread, the dread country of being old.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And it\u2019s like we have these gears in the car, and we just think that we\u2019re gonna be in one gear for a really long time until we\u2019re forced to go to the other gear, and that there\u2019s been no traveling.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right!<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know? Like, we\u2019ve just been sitting in this car in this one gear, and we didn\u2019t go anywhere. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And you know, I, you know, I\u2019m a portraitist.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And sometimes when I\u2019m working with somebody, there will be weeks or months between sittings, and they\u2019ll come back. And I can see all the changes in just like mm, a couple months, you know.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I\u2019ve painted people who were pregnant who started working with me when they were three months pregnant and ended two weeks before birth, and I nearly threw myself off a roof, right?<\/p>\n<p>BOTH: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I\u2019m like, OK, what do I erase now? Oh, my god! What am I doing? I\u2019ve worked with trans people who were going through all kinds of transition while I\u2019m&#8230;. And so, this fantasy of the permanent body, not to mention all my self-portraits. [unclear] [sighs, laughs] You know?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I just feel like&#8230;we&#8230; [sighs] we are moments in time.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: My whole book is about my intersection with medical history, or a lot of it is about where I collide at different points with medical history.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And as a medical historian, let me just say to my listeners, you will do well, historian readers, to pick up the book. You\u2019ll be getting so much wonderful stuff in addition to the memoir. Sorry. OK, carry on. Just a little plug. [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: No, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. And you know, now, as you know, I work in medical humanities, and we are having all kinds of debates about the ethics of human display, for instance, at my university. And I\u2019m very intent on trying to explain my position, which is not the popular one at all.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And it\u2019s, I think, because I have a completely different sense of embodiment than the professors do or that, yeah. I mean, my reaction to human display and embodiment is to understand my body and to understand the bodies of the people I work with, which is very different from whether or not it pertains to my patient load or my prospective patients.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, yes.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And so, I see a completely different importance. And\u2014 No, please go on.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Oh no. I was just going to say there was a somewhat controversial museum display of polio patients in the nude a few years ago.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Where was that? I missed that.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mentally, my brain is telling me Germany, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s right either.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [inaudible]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I have to look it up. But it was essentially, it was quite controversial, and I was working in museums at the time. And it was controversial among museum staff, staffers as well because they thought, well, no, this is inappropriate. But the people had volunteered to have these nude photographs, and they were full size. So, when you walked through the display, they were the size of a regular person, and you walked through them in a hall to see their bodies displayed. And it does remind me a little bit of the way your art works in the sense that it was all quite, it was, it did not feel, people accused it of being a kind of gallery of, like a sideshow gallery or something.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And it didn\u2019t feel that way at all. It actually felt as though these were engaged subjects who were asking you to look on and remember that the world is made up of\u2014 A disability scholar actually said this, and I can\u2019t recall who it was, but that the world is made up of disabled and pre-disabled people, not disabled and abled people.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Yeah, I have a problem with that, though.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Oh, do you? Tell me about it.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: There\u2019s this thing\u2014I don\u2019t know what it\u2019s from, I forget\u2014but it\u2019s called the witch at the wedding.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And it\u2019s like, you\u2019re the foreboding. You\u2019re the which who\u2019s here to cast the curse to, you know, your happiness is short-lived. Mortality is coming for you. I don\u2019t wanna be that.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know, I\u2019m not gonna live my life as a threat to other people.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right! right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know? I think that\u2019s very, very shortsighted language, personally.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: OK. No, that\u2019s really powerful. I think that\u2019s important to say. \u2018Cause I think some disabled activists use it, I think, as a way of saying, you\u2019re not so different from us. But I see your point because there\u2019s a, it\u2019s the stick versus the carrot, isn\u2019t it? We want to explore our bodies in joy, not as horror.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Right.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, I get what you\u2019re saying, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I\u2019m actually writing right now for, there\u2019s a, I don\u2019t know if you know Michael Sepal.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Oh, yes. I know Mike, personally, actually, and his wife is on the board of, it\u2019s on our website.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Oh, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. Well, I\u2019m writing, I just wrote a book chapter for Mike on this collection of nude scoliosis photographs they found at the Karolinska.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm, OK.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And you know, as someone who has scoliosis, he wanted me to, I think he wanted a very personal reaction to like, how does it feel to see this?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: But I ended up writing about them in their relationship to both portraiture and queerness.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right, right. Interesting.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And, you know, it just keeps reminding me that even, you know, the outside world keeps expecting disability to deliver a particular message of like, either we need help or we\u2019re so pathetic or you\u2019ll end up like this or something.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And I just continually find my aesthetics and my perspective so sideways to&#8230;everything?!<\/p>\n<p>BOTH: [laugh]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Except for people like me. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: No, I think that that\u2019s really telling. And actually, it\u2019s a great segue into another point I wanted to make about the book and about your work in general. And that is your commitment to beauty and joy, which I don\u2019t think is always expressed, or in fact, isn\u2019t even encouraged to be expressed. And I don\u2019t\u2014 I\u2019m actually, I have autism, which is a disability in many respects, and I\u2019m also someone who\u2019s non-binary. And so, I understand how much of that I was asked to hide or cover up for most of my life. And so, I didn\u2019t treat it with the kind of, there\u2019s a stained-glass wonderment of color in life that surrounds your artwork and also the words on the page, especially as you talk about intimacy and the right of disabled people to love, to have sex, to have children, to, you know, to live life at its fullest. And I think that\u2019s something that makes your book, <em>Golem Girl<\/em>, so different from so many other stories, which are about rather than from.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And I wondered if you wanted to say a few words about that. Because I do think that is one of the most critical and most beautiful aspects of the book, for me anyway, and of your perspective, of that sideways perspective, which I think lets the light in.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Well, I mean, we are people who are intensely aware of bodies&#8230;you know, or bodyminds. And we\u2019ve had to understand. So, so, I\u2019ve been writing about what I think disability beauty is, which I think partly answers this.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Which is that when people have been scrutinized most of their life, and it can be because of the way they look or the way that they perform their bodies or&#8230;. Yeah, I mean, perform your body covers a lot of territory, and that includes people who are queer and non-binary as well as people with impairments. Most of the time, you have to get to know yourself at a level that I think able-bodied people generally aren\u2019t required to do. Whether or not they do, it\u2019s not a requirement, and it is for us if we\u2019re gonna survive.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And we do have this kind of double consciousness of understanding ourself and also constantly aware of the outside world\u2019s picture, pictures, of who we are. And for me, this produces this kind of super-presence that I see, you know, sometimes I see in performers too, who I think get there through a different route. And that\u2019s what really wows me is, and it\u2019s just not something that you can point to and say, \u201cThere it is.\u201d I mean. It\u2019s something I see and experience and find really kind of lustrous.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And I think it goes to what you\u2019re saying because once you\u2019ve gone through all that, once you get to the point of love and sex and joy and&#8230;. I won\u2019t say you don\u2019t take anything for granted because that starts to sound like survivor language. I have mixed feelings about that too. I just think that you\u2019re just there, like&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I wonder sometimes if it\u2019s that I know I\u2019ve had to learn, I\u2019ve had to learn a lot about myself, as you point out.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: I was late a diagnosis with autism. I just thought I was just weird as heck. Like, you know.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: You know, it was very difficult for me to read people. And I had Eric Garcia on.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: We were talking about [unclear] in his book. And I had to make human beings a study so that I could interact with the world as well as I do. And so, everything became a performance for me. Every, every aspect became a performance.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And so, I think some of it is sometimes, that\u2019s called embodiment. For me, it was occasionally dissociative as well, almost disembodied. But it was a sense of entering into and a little bit like looking at your own brain, you know, as if you, as if your eyes could look at themselves. I feel like that\u2019s kind of what it requires. And I think you\u2019re right. I think you have to be there. You can\u2019t, it\u2019s not something you can kind of go on autopilot. You have to be there and you have to be looking and you have to be listening and you\u2019re very present.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Exactly. That\u2019s a perfect description. And I think that that is, that does something to you. It does something permanent to who you are. And sometimes I think when I hear people say, \u201cOh, I had this terrible illness, and it did all these dreadful things to my life, but I wouldn\u2019t give it, I wouldn\u2019t give it up for anything. Like, I would never, if I could say that would never, if I could undo it, I wouldn\u2019t.\u201d And I know that there\u2019s a lot of narratives around that, but sometimes I think that part of it is this, and they don\u2019t have language for it.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: But it\u2019s this, it\u2019s a little like what art\u2014 OK, so the thing I tell my students about being an artist or a writer is that the big thing you get out of it is a conversation with yourself. That you get to know your own capabilities, limits, desires, imagination, place in the world in a way that I don\u2019t have access any other way. I mean, that\u2019s a different part of my life, but it so overlaps with the self-knowledge of disability, at least for me.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And, you know, I think that people who haven\u2019t experienced that and then suddenly have this door fly open where they know themselves so much better, and they understand their, where they contact the world. I can see not wanting to give that up.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: But I do wanna say something about, going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, about having a book in a pandemic.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: So, like I said, I was very hopeful. And I\u2019ve seen these very terrible messages from mainstream culture and mainstream medicine about our lack of worth.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And as a Jew, [chuckles] you know, I certainly know the history of the \u201cuseless eater\u201d rhetoric.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And here\u2019s what I am afraid of, and this is just no hyperbole at all.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: But when I saw the kind of triage happening, I thought, OK, you know. As things went on, I thought, OK, COVID is ghastly, but COVID is also the faintest brush of the wing of what\u2019s coming in terms of climate change.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And I mean, in part, COVID is a result of climate change, right?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Right.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know, people going into animal reservoirs that we have no business in and coming back with, you know, party surprises. Guess what I\u2019m bringing?!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: [chuckles]<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: And I am very afraid that as the world moves towards either real or perceived scarcity, either real or failure-based scarcity, that I can see society moving more towards a picture where productivity is the ultimate.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know, and that, I mean, especially with\u2014and I\u2019m sorry if anybody out there disagrees with me, but\u2014you know, I am&#8230;. [chuckles] Appalled is just so not the word, but what\u2019s going on politically in America and around the world with the swing towards the right and towards fascism, and those are not paradigms that are friendly to disabled people!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: No, no. Nor, well, yeah, to all sorts of people, but particularly that gets lost a lot, I find. I\u2019m working on, my next book talks a little bit about this.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: What\u2019s it called?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: It\u2019s about the trans clinic in interwar Berlin as well.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Mm!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, it\u2019s about the rise of the Nazi Party and also the rise\u2014 So, it\u2019s about homosexuality and other things like trying to have rights as this fascist sort of horrible things are on the rise at the same time and how that happens. But one of the things that routinely surprises people is when I tell them how many disabled people were killed in the concentration camps\u2014<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Oh, we were the test, crash test dummies, a key part.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah. Absolutely. They were the first ones.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: I mean, in America, it started in America\u2014<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: It did. It did, mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: \u2014killing off disabled people. And then it was, you know, an import.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And when not killing them, at least sterilizing them, which was practiced, you know, with impunity.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [unclear; cross-talk]<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And so, that\u2019s a story that has gotten lost. Yes, that\u2019s true. But that\u2019s a story that\u2019s gotten lost. And by the way, just for our listeners, in case you weren\u2019t sure: So, triage meaning they were trying to decide who got care in what order, and they were privileging certain kinds of lives over others because of scarcity of medical equipment. And we have some articles about that in the Journal if you need just a refresher on that. But what\u2019s frightening about it is this sense that it\u2019s happening, and it\u2019s happening quietly. And people don\u2019t recognize it for what it is, partly because those early stories, the beginnings of what happened before World War II have also been forgotten, the stories of how they treated disabled lives and sterilization process. Now you have them asking, you know, autistic people if they can put a \u201cDo Not Resuscitate\u201d on their medical chart.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: [huge laugh] Oh god!<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Yeah, it\u2019s happening\u2014<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: You know how often I\u2019m asked?<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: So, it\u2019s a really, we have a, we have, absolutely, it is imperative that all of us, all of us become aware of these. You\u2019re right. It\u2019s very difficult to look at these stories, but we need to remember them because we need to be able to recognize that some of these things are happening again right now all around us. And I agree with you. I think that there\u2019s a real, we\u2019re at a watershed moment where I feel like we are going to lose the opportunity to make those things, to make sure those things don\u2019t happen if we don\u2019t act pretty soon. So, again, another reason why <em>Golem Girl<\/em> is a really powerful and important book right now to be read. And I know it\u2019s available widely in the U.S. It\u2019s also available in the UK. Am I right? Yes?<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Yes. Both paperback hardback, e-book, and audiobook.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: Excellent. And so, I\u2019m really excited. We are also having it reviewed, so the review will be linked as well on the Journal in the blog for those of you who also follow our blog as well as the print journal.<\/p>\n<p>So, thank you so much. I know we\u2019ve gone a little bit longer than I promised, but this has been an absolutely fascinating, necessary, and powerful conversation, again, Riva.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>SCHILLACE: And if you haven\u2019t already checked out her work, please go to her website. We will have a link on the blog to that that you can get to from this podcast and check out her work. It\u2019s really amazing. Absolutely beautiful artwork as well. Riva, thank you for your inspiration and for your words, and for being with us today as part of the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>LEHRER: Thank you. This has just been a joy.<!--TrendMD v2.4.8--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Podcast with Riva Lehrer Riva Lehrer is an artist, writer, and curator who focuses on the socially challenged body. Best known for representations of people whose physical embodiment, sexuality, or gender identity have long been stigmatized. Lehrer\u2019s memoir, Golem Girl (One World\/ Penguin Random House), won the 2020 Barbellion Prize for Literature and was a [&#8230;]<\/p>\n<p><a class=\"btn btn-secondary understrap-read-more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2022\/03\/04\/podcast-with-riva-lehrer-author-of-golem-girl-a-memoir\/\">Read More&#8230;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":345,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[15029],"tags":[15058],"class_list":["post-3284","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcasts","tag-podcasts"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Podcast with Riva Lehrer, Author of Golem Girl: A Memoir - Medical Humanities<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Listen to our podcast with Riva Lehrer, author 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