{"id":2671,"date":"2020-12-10T05:08:23","date_gmt":"2020-12-10T04:08:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/?p=2671"},"modified":"2022-09-16T10:15:52","modified_gmt":"2022-09-16T09:15:52","slug":"podcast-heart-in-medicine-history-and-culture","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2020\/12\/10\/podcast-heart-in-medicine-history-and-culture\/","title":{"rendered":"Podcast: Heart in Medicine, History and Culture"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Today we are joined by Therese Feiler, a Postdoctoral Researcher in Systematic Theology and Ethics at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit\u00e4t in Munich. She is part of the project DigiMed Bayern, a multidisciplinary consortium working on digitalized and personalized medicine in in the field of athero-sclerotic diseases. She\u2019ll be speaking to EIC Brandy Schillace about the upcoming December special issue (part of the 2020 double issue).<\/p>\n<style type=\"text\/css\">\r\n       .errordiv { padding:10px; margin:10px; border: 1px solid #555555;color: #000000;background-color: #f8f8f8; width:500px; }#advanced_iframe {visibility:visible;opacity:1;}#ai-layer-div-advanced_iframe p {height:100%;margin:0;padding:0}<\/style><script type=\"text\/javascript\">  var ai_iframe_width_advanced_iframe = 0;  var ai_iframe_height_advanced_iframe = 0;var aiIsIe8=false;var aiOnloadScrollTop=\"true\";\r\nif (typeof aiReadyCallbacks === 'undefined') {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];  \r\n} else if (!(aiReadyCallbacks instanceof Array)) {\r\n    var aiReadyCallbacks = [];\r\n}    function aiShowIframeId(id_iframe) { jQuery(\"#\"+id_iframe).css(\"visibility\", \"visible\");    }    function aiResizeIframeHeight(height) { aiResizeIframeHeight(height,advanced_iframe); }    function aiResizeIframeHeightId(height,width,id) {aiResizeIframeHeightById(id,height);}<\/script><iframe loading=\"lazy\" id=\"advanced_iframe\"  name=\"advanced_iframe\"  src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/941655733&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\"  width=\"560\"  height=\"166\"  frameborder=\"0\"  border=\"0\"  allowtransparency=\"true\"  allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\"  style=\";width:560;height:166;\" ><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">var ifrm_advanced_iframe = document.getElementById(\"advanced_iframe\");var hiddenTabsDoneadvanced_iframe = false;\r\nfunction resizeCallbackadvanced_iframe() {}function aiChangeUrl(loc) {}<\/script>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Read the full article on the <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/mh.bmj.com\/content\/46\/4\/350\"><em>Medical Humanities <\/em>journal website<\/a><\/strong>.<\/h3>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Based on the 2017 Flavell Symposium at the Apothecaries Society in London, This SI brings together leading cardiologists, cardiac surgeons, cultural historians and theologians to explore the past and present of the heart in history, medicine and culture. \u201cIt was a delightful, inspiring day,\u201d explains Therese, \u201cI&#8217;m delighted that one of the symposium speakers, Fay Bound Alberti, and one of the organizers, Andrew Papanikitas, have each agreed to write a short comment on the contributions to the present special issue.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-2672\" src=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2020\/10\/Therese-Feiler-2-237x300.jpg\" alt=\"Therese with blond hair swept into a low bun. She stands against a green background and smiles slightly.\" width=\"237\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2020\/10\/Therese-Feiler-2-237x300.jpg 237w, https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2020\/10\/Therese-Feiler-2.jpg 250w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 237px) 100vw, 237px\" \/>Therese Feiler studied English and Religious Studies at Berlin, Aberdeen, and Oxford. She completed her DPhil in Theology (Christian Ethics) at Oxford in 2013. Eventually this developed into her first book, <em>Logics of War: The Use of Force and the Problem of Mediation <\/em>(Bloomsbury T&amp;T Clark, 2020). She pursued her interests in political theology working on the welfare state and modern political demonology. From 2015-2018 she was a postdoctoral researcher at the Healthcare Values Partnership at the University of Oxford, where she focused on\u00a0personalization and responsibilities in medicine and healthcare. As part of her work with the consortium DigiMed Bayern (led by the German Heart Centre, Munich), she is currently researching the medical-ethical, practical and political implications of theological notions of personhood. She is an active member of the Institute of Technology &#8211; Theology &#8211; Natural Sciences (TTN) at the LMU Munich.<\/p>\n<p>url and twitter:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.st.evtheol.uni-muenchen.de\/personen\/personen-ethik\/dr_therese_feiler\/index.html\">https:\/\/www.st.evtheol.uni-muenchen.de\/personen\/personen-ethik\/dr_therese_feiler\/index.html<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.digimed-bayern.de\/en.html\">https:\/\/www.digimed-bayern.de\/en.html<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Twitter: @InstitutTTN (the account has been dormant but will be relaunched next week!)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>More from Therese:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n<ul>\n<li>Co-editor and contributor to a volume on the heart and its implications for epistemology. Working title: <em>The Heart: Knowledge and Constitution of Being<\/em> (publication in German. Out with Brill: Ferdinand Schoeningh, 2021\/2022)<\/li>\n<li><em>Logics of War: The Use of Force and the Problem of Mediation <\/em>(Bloomsbury T&amp;T Clark, 2020)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>\u2018The Ontology of Personhood: Distinguishing Sober from Enthusiastic Personalised Medicine\u2019 (Studies in Christian Ethics, M\u00e4rz 2018, Online First)<\/p>\n<p><strong>TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>BRANDY SCHILLACE: Hello, and welcome back to the <em>Medical Humanities podcast<\/em>. I\u2019m Brandy Schillace. And today we\u2019re joined by Therese Feiler, a postdoctoral researcher in Systemic Theology and Ethics at the Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich. She is part of the project that\u2019s a multidisciplinary consortium working on digitalized and personalized medicine in the field of disease that she\u2019s going to actually explain a bit more to us. But the reason I want to talk to her today has to do with an upcoming December special issue that will be part of our 2020 double December issue for those readers of the <em>Medical Humanities Journal<\/em>. Therese, what I\u2019m really hoping you might do is give us a bit more information about what it is that you do and where it is that you\u2019re coming from, particularly your field, and then what led you to work on this special issue?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: So, I\u2019m one of these people who you might call a fox rather than a hedgehog.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: So, I have multiple interests. And for some reason, they do cohere in my head, but not necessarily when you read about them. I\u2019m interested in political theology. That\u2019s my background. And starting from there, I looked at welfare state reforms and then eventually moved into medical ethics coming from there. And that very soon, and today, of course, connects with questions about technology, questions about how do we diagnose people, how do we conceptualize people? So, there is a deep anthropological element to this, which then, of course, connects to the medical, ethical, and political practice.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: So, my focus on personalization and digitalization in medicine is kind of embedded in an anthropological and political anthropological background.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: I think that\u2019s fascinating. And I\u2019m actually multidisciplinary as well, though not coming from it in the same direction that you are. And so, I find these connections really interesting. And I think Medical Humanities is such a rich and fertile place for these kinds of explorations to take place. I\u2019m particularly interested in what you say about digitization and personalization, because I feel especially now, in this age of pandemic and we all are on Zoom, there seems no better time than to be asking those kinds of questions.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes. I mean, there are so many ways in which you can approach this, right? So, digitalization, the digital world can just be this sort of thing that lands from outer space. And we\u2019re all trying to approach it from our disciplines, and we\u2019re trying to figure out well, what is this thing? And so, I would say coming from my perspective, it\u2019s a question of what is the body politic, and what is the individual human being? The body politic, you can see, is being atomized. It\u2019s coming apart, but through the digital world is also becoming, in a way, spiritualized. I went to an online conference where somebody said, you know, \u201cThe Internet is the Holy Spirit.\u201d And I thought that is unbelievable in a way. But this is how people think they are constituted and connected as individuals and as a community. And I think it\u2019s interesting to ask, is this just yet another form of a kind of spiritual or intellectual life that we lead? Or is this a new thing or maybe even a travesty of it?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Mm. That\u2019s really interesting. It\u2019s almost a Jungian unconscious kind of thing if we\u2019re all connected in this certain way.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes, I think yes! That aspect, it certainly plays a huge role. Definitely.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: That\u2019s fascinating. So, tell me a little bit about, as I said, the December special issue is actually embedded in our December double issue, which is quite large. And the December special issue will head that issue up. It\u2019ll lead it. So, tell me a little bit about what brought this together. It\u2019s called <em>Heart in Medicine, History and Culture<\/em>. And how did this come to be, particularly from these diverse and interdisciplinary directions?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: This is based on a get together of scholars, cardiologists, researchers in cardiology, cultural historians, and theologians in 2017 at the Apothecaries Society in London. It was the Flavell Symposium, which takes place, I believe, once every year. And this event was so, to my mind, it was so special. I really thought, here is a topic, here is a theme, here as a motif that is uniting so many concerns: medical concerns, cultural concerns, political concerns, psychological concerns. And I learned so much. I learned so much about the history of cardiology, about the techniques, about the characters, you know. I mean, cardiologists are a bunch of people who have a particular kind of enthusiasm.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: And so, we thought, let\u2019s bring these people together, and let\u2019s publish something. And what could be a better place than Medical Humanities?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: That\u2019s fantastic. And now, the articles themselves are quite different from one another.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And did you wanna say a little bit about how they work together in the context of this issue?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes, I think what we\u2019re all kind of starting from is what is quite conventionally known as some kind of medical reductionism. So, the idea, you know, we look at the heart, we look at the body, and we see it just as this machine, this thing, and obviously, the heart as a kind of pump. And that\u2019s simply, in a way, the situation where we are. But the interesting question is, where do we go from there? Because of course, he can\u2019t just sit there and say, this is how we got here. Isn\u2019t that terrible? Isn\u2019t that reducing people and patients and how we practice medicine? So, I think what each contributor is doing is saying, what do we make of that? How do we continue from here? And there are obviously very different ways to do that.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>And somebody like David Cooper, who works on xenotransplantation has a very different idea what to make of this gap between the heart and the human being, as it were, than somebody like Joshua Hordern, who is a theologian and who really wants to see the person as a holistic, unified human being. So, there are tensions in the special issue, definitely.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Right. Right. And I think it\u2019s interesting as well, because in some ways, Medical Humanities as a field has been understood really differently in different cultures and in different spaces.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And so, for instance, I\u2019m in the United States. And for many years, Medical Humanities, as it was practiced in medical schools, was almost to the exclusion really of these kinds of critical discussions. I don\u2019t wanna say that it wasn\u2019t doing useful things, but it tended to be very medicine focused, very focused on the gaze of medicine looking at Humanities rather than Humanities as a lens to look back at medicine. And I think what has expanded, certainly as we do it here in the journal, is a much greater sense of how can the Humanities reinterpret what we mean by health? What we mean by access to health. What we mean by the political implications. What we mean by the ethical implications. And because we have a focus on social justice at BMJ\u2019s <em>Medical Humanities<\/em> that\u2019s particularly useful to us. And so, when you bring together these different people to have these conversations and you realize they don\u2019t have a common language sometimes, I think the question becomes whose voice leads, right? \u2018Cause we always have a tendency to wanna know, well, who\u2019s the authority? Who\u2019s speaking? Who\u2019s the one that we are supposed to listen to? And in so many situations, it\u2019s actually the medical practitioner whose voice gets top tier, top billing, right?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s what\u2019s happened in your special issue. And I think that that\u2019s really important.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes. I think one reason for that is that the people who\u2019ve written and contributed are not necessarily drawing such a strong line between medicine and the Humanities.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Each one has a sense in which they are, you know, either they have a direct interest in a field like Philosophy, and they say, \u201cThis is what I wanna do. This is what I wanna do in my spare time.\u201d But each one of them has a feeling that the other discipline inevitably is part of what they do. And that medicine in itself has a history. It\u2019s got an underlying philosophy, even if that is just very often reduced to methodology. But as soon as you kind of bring that out, it\u2019s much easier to find a common language. And there\u2019s a lot of learning involved as well and I think also a lot of respect. And I think when there is this mutual respect and interest, then the power question suddenly is subdued almost.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Mmhmm. Well, and I think the other thing, too, is by mutual respect, it\u2019s not just respect. Well, it is respect of each other as human beings, but it\u2019s also respect for what the individual fields do and that they matter.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: So, for instance, a medical practitioner might have a love of history but is never going to understand history like a historian, any more than a historian might be interested in heart surgery but isn\u2019t going to try and practice one, you know.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: So, I think that we know that it\u2019s silly when, we wouldn\u2019t want a historian practicing heart surgery, but sometimes we forget that we shouldn\u2019t have heart surgeons trying to practice history as though they are historians.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And so, I think it\u2019s really useful to have these conversations where each participant realizes the value of the other\u2019s field of knowledge and doesn\u2019t put their own, as though somehow, it is more valuable. Because I think that\u2019s really dangerous. And I want to say that our present climate right now might be proving that for us. Because you don\u2019t just treat a pandemic by throwing a lot of money at medicine. That is part of it, right? There\u2019s development of vaccines. But it\u2019s also who has access to healthcare, whose bodies matter, how do we protect the vulnerable? How do we institute proper communication about mask wearing? How do we\u2014 There\u2019s this much, much broader sense of what kinds of fields are brought to bear to understanding the pandemic.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And that, I think, should hopefully teach us that these multiple and multidisciplinary perspectives are, in fact, the only way forward for an actual humanistic way of practicing medicine.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes, I agree. And there is a sense in which certainly ethics\u2014and I don\u2019t mean ethics in a kind of merely analytical or technocratic way. I mean ethics in a practical way\u2014there\u2019s a sense that this is something we really need to talk about. And this is also where I think the different fields come together, kind of at the point of a practical wisdom that doesn\u2019t just, as you say, chuck money into creating more and more facts. I mean, how many million studies do we have on COVID-19 now? But that doesn\u2019t tell you what exactly we should do. Because that derives from a sense of well, who do we wanna be? What do we wanna be? How do we\u2014 How should we live? Which you can\u2019t find out through doing many empirical studies. So, I think this is definitely a field where the Medical Humanities can also start the conversation about practical wisdom.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: In some ways, I sometimes wonder if there\u2019s technically any medicine that isn\u2019t Medical Humanities, really. Because I\u2019m not sure that you can practice it effectively any other way.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Now, before we leave, I do wanna say again, the special issue is called <em>Heart in Medicine, History and Culture<\/em>. And it\u2019s not an accident that you chose the heart for this particular special issue. But I also feel that this treatment isn\u2019t exclusionary, isn\u2019t exclusive to the heart. You easily could\u2019ve probably focused on all sorts of, like the brain, for instance, as well. And I wonder, are you thinking about possible ways in which this model might be utilized in the future?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Well, I mean, mm&#8230;I would question whether you can use the brain in the same way. I mean, I suppose you\u2019re asking about the model and how to approach a topic. Do I get you right?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: Mmhmm, right. Mmhmm. Because you have your theologians and you have your surgeons and you have your, obviously, it would be much more difficult to talk about transplantation in the brain!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes, exactly.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: But I mean, in general, though, you could sort of take any field of medicine and use this treatment. Would you be interested in having symposiums in the future that sort of look at different aspects?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: I think there is a general need, perhaps, for broadening this out into the question of the body as a whole, so even if you can\u2019t exercise topics like transplantation, as you say, to the brain. And of course, the focus on the brain is a different one. And the philosophy of the brain, neuropsychology, neuroscience, neuro-philosophy, these are different fields. So, I think there is a, as soon as you switch organs, as it were, you enter a completely different set of disciplines, I would almost say, which has to do with the way we understand the symbolism and the history of these organs.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: And yet I think theology would probably end up being part of most of those discussions in some way.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Yes. Yes. And I think sociology would then, in that sense, probably enter by the foundations of philosophy or a meta-philosophy. Whereas if you look at the body as a whole, for example, a new, a completely different field opens up. You have corporate bodies, you have corporate identities, you have corporate persons, and so on. So, that I mean, you could replicate this kind of focus, and you would, with each different focus, you would attract a whole new set of very interesting people and very interesting voices, no doubt.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: I feel like we could have a really interesting edited collection or series based on this very model. It\u2019s really interesting.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Definitely.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>BRANDY: So, again, thank you so much for joining us. I hope everyone will tune in to the December issue. Just so our listeners know, you can see a summary of the different articles appear on the blog. And there will also, frequently, they are attendant with a short audio blurb from the authors as well. And we\u2019ll be tweeting those out. It should be launched sometime in mid-December. And we look forward to you being part of it. Again, Therese, thank you so much for being part of this.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>FEILER: Thank you so much, Brandy.<!--TrendMD v2.4.8--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Today we are joined by Therese Feiler, a Postdoctoral Researcher in Systematic Theology and Ethics at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit\u00e4t in Munich. She is part of the project DigiMed Bayern, a multidisciplinary consortium working on digitalized and personalized medicine in in the field of athero-sclerotic diseases. She\u2019ll be speaking to EIC Brandy Schillace about the upcoming December [&#8230;]<\/p>\n<p><a class=\"btn btn-secondary understrap-read-more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2020\/12\/10\/podcast-heart-in-medicine-history-and-culture\/\">Read More&#8230;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":346,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[15028,15029,15047],"tags":[15104,15095,15094,15093],"class_list":["post-2671","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-journal-announcements","category-podcasts","category-special-issues","tag-covid-19","tag-heart","tag-interdisciplinary","tag-special-issue"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Podcast: Heart in Medicine, History and Culture - Medical Humanities<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/2020\/12\/10\/podcast-heart-in-medicine-history-and-culture\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Podcast: Heart in Medicine, History and Culture - Medical Humanities\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Today we are joined by Therese Feiler, a Postdoctoral Researcher in Systematic Theology and Ethics at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit\u00e4t in Munich. She is part of the project DigiMed Bayern, a multidisciplinary consortium working on digitalized and personalized medicine in in the field of athero-sclerotic diseases. 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