Listen now<\/strong><\/a><\/h2>\n<\/li>\n- (Transcript below)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n
![\"Image](\"https:\/\/blogs.bmj.com\/medical-humanities\/files\/2020\/10\/Cheryl-18-square-300x300.jpg\")
Cheryl Green is a captioner, audio describer, freelance audio and video producer with acquired invisible disabilities that inform all of her work around making media equitable and accessible. In this episode, she joins Brandy Schillace (EIC) to answer a few questions: What would it mean if, instead of being \u201cadd-ons,\u201d tools like captions and transcripts were built into a project from the ground up? What if instead of thinking about accessibility as technical additions only, we realized their incredible creative power? Questioning binaries of \u201cabled\u201d and \u201cdisabled\u201d (much like questioning the binary of patient\/doctor) reveals that there are no neat divisions. Inclusivity must be built into the very structure of our projects, and when this is accomplished, the result is collaborative community creation.<\/p>\n
More from Cheryl Green:<\/strong><\/p>\nNewDay.com\/film\/who-am-i-stop-it<\/p>\n
WhoAmIToStopIt.com (podcast episode on transcripts for radio: WhoAmIToStopIt.com\/pigeonhole-podcast-5-radio-transcripts)<\/p>\n
Twitter and FB: @WhoAmIToStopIt<\/p>\n
TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/p>\nBRANDY SCHILLACE: Welcome back to the Medical Humanities Podcast<\/em>. Today, I\u2019m very happy to be bringing on Cheryl Green. Cheryl is a captioner, audio describer, freelance audio and video producer, and Member-Owner at New Day Films, who\u2019s an acqui- who has acquired invisible disabilities that inform her work around making media equitable and accessible. Thank you so much for joining us today, Cheryl.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
CHERYL GREEN: Well, thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: I\u2019m really excited to hear more about your audio work, particularly because I think so often, we produce content, and then only later, as an afterthought, think about its accessibility. A good example being I was late to the game in adding captions to the videos we do for Medical Humanities<\/em>. So, I wonder, what is it like to have that at the forefront as you develop something?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
CHERYL: Oh, that\u2019s such a nice question. Most of my clients do it the traditional way, which is to make their media, whether it\u2019s a podcast or video, and then later, when they realize that they have to add some piece of accessibility, they kind of\u2014some people grudgingly, some people happily\u2014will then look into figuring out how they add that. And most people end up needing to go a budget route, which I understand very much. I mean, everything I do is\u2014I\u2019m an independent media producer\u2014everything I do is freelance contract work. I understand budgets very well, but I also understand that when we go for the most budget option of adding access, it\u2019s usually really crappy.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And I think that when the focus is on compliance\u2014oh, look, I added the captions\u2014when we focus on compliance and we don\u2019t focus on quality and equity and why, like the heart behind why you would have access, we end up with mostly very inaccurate, super error-filled, really low-quality crap. I mean, Rikki Poynter is a Deaf YouTuber who coined the word \u201ccraptions\u201d to\u2014<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: \u2014to refer to what people call the auto-generated captions on YouTube.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: They\u2019re not. They\u2019re subtitles. They\u2019re auto-subtitles, but they\u2019re craptions. They are absolute crap. And a lot of the, a lot of what happens when you don\u2019t account for access at the beginning and you have to go with one of these companies is, even when it\u2019s done by a human, they\u2019re absolute craptions. A lot of my workload is recaptioning people\u2019s films.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right, right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: It\u2019s awful. So, but I\u2019m also a content creator. And so, for me, when I release my podcast, or\u2014I am also an editor and producer on two other podcasts\u2014the audio does not go out until the transcript is done. Like even though it\u2019s a podcast, it\u2019s not considered to be finished at all after the audio editing is done. There has to be the text transcript and provided in multiple ways: a downloadable PDF, which is not always accessible to screen readers. So, you know, you might wanna also do a Word document or Google Doc or paste it directly onto the website. So, I feel for people on a budget. But I think it\u2019s more about shifting the mindset and shifting the paradigm to saying, this piece of content actually literally is not finished until we\u2019ve added the access that we plan to add.<\/p>\n
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Some of my clients, I\u2019ll find out six months later that they had some podcasts out they didn\u2019t tell me about, and they\u2019re waiting for a transcript. Or on the flip side, I\u2019ll submit transcripts, and nearly a year goes by before they mention, \u201cOh, I\u2019m about ready to upload your transcripts.\u201d So, I\u2019m like, it\u2019s literally control C, control V.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: It doesn\u2019t take you a year.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Yeah. And I think that that gets us back to that idea of what perspective are you coming from, right? So, when you have somebody who creates work and they\u2019re thinking of an audience principally made up of sighted, people who have hearing, you know, they think about an audience that does not actually have ability issues, then accessibility ends up being something that\u2019s taken as read. And our theme this year at Medical Humanities<\/em> is about what does accessibility mean? It\u2019s a much broader concept. It\u2019s not just, is there a ramp? Are there captions? It\u2019s have you thought about this community that you are participating with? Have you made them part of your community, even more important? So, I wonder, could you respond to that partly by telling us more about your audio work that you\u2019ve done? You said you\u2019re producer, I think, on two different podcasts?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
CHERYL: Yes. So, three. One is my own podcast, Pigeonhole<\/em>, where I do everything. I do the recording, the engineering, editing, production.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
BRANDY SCHILLACE: You\u2019re a one stop shop! [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: One stop shop! I do the transcripts myself, the blog posts, all that. I would say I promote it, but I don\u2019t because\u2014<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Oh no!<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: \u2014my life\u2019s downfall is I am one of the worst marketers you\u2019ll ever meet on anything. So, I put myself out there. But maybe somebody finds it, maybe they don\u2019t. But I\u2014<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: We\u2019ll make sure we have a link on the blog that is attendant to this podcast so that everyone can find you.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: [chuckles] Thank you. I also edit the audio and do the transcripts for DisArt\u2019s podcast. DisArt is out of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and they have a podcast called DISTopia.<\/em> Which I can\u2019t get over that name. I love it so much.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: They only, they hired me because they\u2019re doing a special series that\u2019s related to COVID-19 life. It is kind of like oral history, really, but centered in this moment. So, I edit those and transcribe those episodes. And then I\u2019m one of the editors on Alice Wong\u2019s Disability Visibility Podcast.<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: I\u2019ve been with her for a few years. And hello to my boss, Alice Wong!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [chuckles]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And I also do all the transcripts for all the episodes for that. And then I can\u2019t remember if there was some other part of the question that you asked.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Oh, just in those situations where the community, the disability community, is part of the larger community that you are intentionally reaching out to. Can you talk about how that changes the perspective? So, what I mean by that is so often, in addition to this concept of craptions, which I love, a lot of times, even really well-intentioned, well-meaning people don\u2019t go far enough because they actually aren\u2019t in communication with those communities. They don\u2019t know what it takes to really be accessible. And so, you had mentioned briefly about even the kinds of downloads of transcripts are important to the story. Could you say more about, in something like Disability Visibility<\/em>, well, you know that that\u2019s your audience. How does that change the way you approach sort of from the ground up? I would just be interested to know how does that look, to those of us who are trying to do it right, but kind of coming from the other side?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
CHERYL GREEN: Sure. So, I think the first step is kind of conceptual, and that is to say, have I thought about who\u2019s in my audience? [chuckles]<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Like, \u2018cause you mentioned earlier, oh, people don\u2019t think about disability community. I think where it starts is people don\u2019t even ask themselves whether they are being super normative or not. Well, I\u2019ve got a podcast about environmentalism. So, environmentalists will like that. Great. Here we go. OK. Well, there are environmentalists who need transcripts. But you stopped when you just said the topic of your show. So, and a lot of people think that only disability-related content should be made accessible, which never ceases to blow my mind.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Yeah.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: So, for me, it starts with the concept of asking who is your audience? And I can\u2019t speak for Alice and Disability Visibility Podcast<\/em>, but I can say for mine, I don\u2019t care one bit if non-disabled muggles check out my podcast ever. I really, my podcast is kind of weird and very insider. I have had people say, \u201cI don\u2019t know what that, what that…. It feels so insider. I feel like I don\u2019t get it.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOK. Well, then it\u2019s not for you.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
BRANDY: Hmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: I don\u2019t aspire to make something that everybody will like. My thing is for a targeted audience. It\u2019s for Deaf and disabled, very politicized community. It\u2019s not necessarily even for the impairment-based communities that I identify with because it\u2019s not a medical focus show. And I think that a lot of people with my same diagnoses and impairments can\u2019t even relate to the show because it\u2019s not about those topics.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: I think I\u2019m sort of talking myself into a circle.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: OK. So, there\u2019s the concept of who might possibly be in the audience I wanna reach.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right, right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: I guess conceptually, it\u2019s always a good question, as a creator, who might be able to access this, and who is not gonna be able to access this and why.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: So, one reason people can\u2019t access your work is because they don\u2019t have a good enough Internet connection. But another reason people can\u2019t access your work is because you did not provide it in a way that they can access. And that\u2019s another shift. We need to move away from saying, \u201cOh, people with this disability can\u2019t do this thing and access my show.\u201d And we need to focus more on creators. What can you do to make your show accessible?<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Rather than focusing on what you think someone can or can\u2019t do, how much access can you provide? How much are you willing to?<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And how far will you go to find high-quality access? \u2018Cause if you put effort into making a beautiful piece, and you pay top dollar or even medium dollar for the editors and color correction and sound sweetening, all this stuff, why would you go with budget access?!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mm. Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Why do you think that for someone who can only access your film by reading the captions, why would you think that giving them substandard and inaccurate captions is good?<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Like, that actually, they\u2019re gonna have a bad experience with your film. But people who don\u2019t need captions might have an excellent experience with it.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, that\u2019s what we need to do, is start by asking those questions, and then figure out the budget.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: If you can\u2019t afford captions, is there something else you can cut corners on so that you can afford the captions?<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Rather than treating that like the add-on that is sacrifice-able. I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n
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And in a way, it\u2019s your point about you know your audience really well for your podcast, and you know who you\u2019re aiming for. And it\u2019s a disabled, it\u2019s a community of disability people. People who are interested in, who are themselves disabled. And you said it\u2019s not even every kind of disability. But you know who they are. And you\u2019re providing access to those people, but you\u2019re not excluding. It\u2019s not as though someone who didn\u2019t have a disability couldn\u2019t access to your podcast. They could access it. They might not understand it. The problem that we have with these others is that it doesn\u2019t, you never get to the point of finding out if they understand the content. They can\u2019t even access it.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Right, right! And I did an episode actually on my podcast about transcripts for radio and why we need them. And it was based on a real conversation where I talked to another audio professional who said he had transcripts of his stuff. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, finally! Yay! Do you post your transcripts?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cNo, why? Why would I do that?\u201d<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [gasps] Oh, my!<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell…\u201d And so, I\u2019m kind of a slow thinker a lot of the time. So, what I failed to realize was he has transcripts so that he can edit his interviews down and edit his content down. And I was like, but literally, I don\u2019t understand why you would have transcripts and not post them. So, now, three years later, I understand why. But he said, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t post transcripts.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, what about, for example, Deaf people?\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t think Deaf people would be interested in my show.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [chuckles]<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And then turned his body away from me to end the conversation. We were at a group dinner thing. And that inspired me to, in tears, come home and do a whole episode about transcripts. And I interviewed all these people. And a lot of people are like, \u201cWe do transcripts for deaf people!\u201d And I think stop virtue signaling and patting yourself on the back. Deaf people are not the only people who use transcripts.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And if you do that kind of virtue signaling where you name this one group because they\u2019re a group that everybody\u2019s familiar with, you\u2019re actually showing that you\u2019re not really, you\u2019re focused on yourself. You\u2019re not focused on equitable access. Just say you have transcripts. \u201cWe have tran\u2014\u201d Anybody who wants to use them can and should be able to. They\u2019re not transcripts just for Deaf people. It doesn\u2019t make any sense. It\u2019s fine to pick a group and use as an example. You know, I said to this guy, \u201cWhat about Deaf people?\u201d But there are so many other people, and in this interview, or in this episode I did on transcripts, I interviewed all sorts of people who don\u2019t identify as Deaf but can\u2019t partake of content that\u2019s not transcribed.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And, yeah, it was a fun episode to do. It was an angering episode, but it was fun.<\/p>\n
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BOTH: [chuckle]<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Well, I think this gets back to another point that I have about accessibility. And \u2018m gonna sort of take a long way around to get to what I\u2019m trying to say, which is when we talk about patients, for instance, if you say patients, doctor. Well, this is Medical Humanities. <\/em>And so, often you\u2019ll have people describe the experience of a patient versus the experience of a doctor. We\u2019ve largely moved away from that as much as we can, anyway, at Medical Humanities<\/em>, not because we wanna make that invisible, but because \u201cpatient\u201d is a category that is one tiny fraction of your life. You might be a patient, but you\u2019re also a violinist, a gourmet chef. You\u2019re a whole human being. And so, we\u2019ve really moved more towards looking at the public, right? So, how do we reach the public? And in a way, I feel like accessibility is similar. If you\u2019re just looking at accessibility, as in, I am correcting this missing thing, i.e., I am providing transcripts for the Deaf, like you said, the ones who signal it, then you\u2019re not really, the focus is on the missing thing. It\u2019s sort of a taking the negative approach instead of the positive approach. Sort of like looking at someone as a patient as opposed to an entire human being that may also be a patient. So, I wonder\u2014I may be making this needlessly complex\u2014but I feel that accessibility is something to focus on in and of itself to make things accessible. Because we\u2019re all part of this community that has varying needs, as opposed to this kind of narrowing down. Is that kind of what you\u2019re saying there too?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
CHERYL: I didn\u2019t understand the question. I understood everything leading up to the question.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs] Sorry. And this concept of the opening out of access, that you should provide these things because you should provide them, because they\u2019re a necessary part. You know, the podcast isn\u2019t done until there\u2019s a transcript. This concept that the accessibility factor is not about you picking a community and saying, \u201cWell, we\u2019re letting them in.\u201d But it\u2019s actually this all of our communication, all of our community, all of our work in podcast, audio, and video, too, is supposed to be accessible because it just should be. Not because we\u2019re trying to fix a specific problem, but because blanket-wide, accessibility is important.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Yes. I need to pause because my screen saver came on, and it\u2019s hurting my eyes.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Oh.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: [typing] So, I just need to remember my password so I can unlock my computer.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Oh, no!<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: What that reminded me of is that there is, in a lot of these accessibility conversations\u2014and I was even in one recently\u2014there still, here\u2019s one piece that\u2019s missing is, in larger conversations, especially with people outside disability community and disability arts, there\u2019s still an assumption that I\u2019m coming across that we should make stuff accessible to Deaf and disabled audiences. And they leave out the whole thing about disabled creators.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, here I am talking to you right now. And once my screen went to sleep and the screen saver, it came on, I couldn\u2019t really even speak to you because I don\u2019t like that screen saver. I don\u2019t know how to change it. I suppose I could look it up. But I have to do different things to help me concentrate because of my disability. And this thing became a distraction to where I couldn\u2019t even participate in my own interview. And so, when we\u2019re making stuff accessible, it\u2019s also accessible for Deaf and disabled creators who need to always be…. Disabled people need to be considered leaders. And one of the things that I love about what you said, where we\u2019re not gonna talk about patients and doctors as these two separate groups, another beautiful thing about that is that you do have Deaf and disabled doctors and providers of different kinds.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Exactly.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, it doesn\u2019t help to divide. There are doctors who are patients!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Yes!<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: So, I do always wanna\u2014 Some of the choices that I make in my sound design are for me. And I hope that other people who have auditory processing struggles or concentration struggles or hearing sensitivity, I think about them too, of course. But I\u2019m not gonna put something in that I can\u2019t tolerate, and that helps me think about other people. OK, you know what? These lights are flashing too bright. I can\u2019t have that. If I, editing this video, can\u2019t tolerate to look at that, there are other people who not only can\u2019t tolerate it, but even worse than can\u2019t tolerate it.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, I think there is also a disabled aesthetic that can open up that, by its nature, is more accessible because it\u2019s accommodating. So, you\u2019re never gonna hear a podcast of mine with people talking and music with a driving percussion under it. It\u2019s just never gonna happen on my show because I can\u2019t tolerate that!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughing] Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, part of my aesthetic ends up just being an accessibility aesthetic or a disabled esthetic.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And I no longer can remember if I\u2019m actually answering the question that you asked!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: No, you are, you are. Or you\u2019re leading somewhere more beautiful. It doesn\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: OK!<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: [laughs] I wanna grasp onto something you said here, which I think is very important, which is the creative. You keep saying \u201ccreators, creative.\u201d<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Mm.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: And that\u2019s a positive word. And I think what I was trying to get at, possibly not well, is that we have a tendency to look at accessibility as we look at disability, as like this will fix that. Hearing aid for this person. Eyeglasses for that, you know.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: As opposed to the creative aspects that come along with what these kinds of things can mean. So, there\u2019s a positive way that says, how can I make accessibility beautiful and glorious and amazing? Instead of looking at the negative, how can I fill this gap so I don\u2019t get into trouble?<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: I mean, 100%. Absolutely. I think my favorite parts of\u2014 Well, I love captioning and audio description. Captioning is especially great because I love tedious, repetitive stuff. And you might have to watch the same film three, five, eight times to make sure the captions are as close to perfect as you can possibly make them. I love that repetitive tediousness of it. And…but I also love, I love…. I spend a lot of time on thesaurus.com. And I\u2019ll even, it\u2019s not so much dancing, but sometimes I\u2019ll hear something in a film, and I can\u2019t think of the adjective to describe it. So, I\u2019ll try to put the sound in my body and feel it and move my body in a way that will eventually somehow, magically elicit an adjective that I want or at least get me closer on thesaurus.com to what I want.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: And so, I\u2019m having this kind of blissed out, creative experience of like unleashing words through spontaneous, improvised movement. But I also have the joy of knowing that I didn\u2019t say \u201cslow music, slow music, slow music, slow music.\u201d<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Like the budget captioners, if they even describe the music at all. It\u2019s just like, will you stop saying it\u2019s slow? So, if I hear slow music in a film, it sounds slow to me. I\u2019m not gonna put \u201cslow.\u201d I\u2019m gonna think about what emotion is the director evoking? Why did the director pick this particular kind of music? What does this music make me feel? Well, it\u2019s making me feel like thinking. OK, so maybe it\u2019s pensive music. Maybe it\u2019s thoughtful music. Why is it slow? You know what? This time, it\u2019s that\u2014 Sometimes, directors might use the same piece of music several times throughout the film. I mean, there\u2019s very good reasons to do that.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Sure.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Well, I might hear the same song twice. And one time it makes me think, and another time it makes me sad. It\u2019s the same music, but this scene feels sad. So, I might describe the music as…. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s a better word than \u201csad,\u201d but I don\u2019t have to be literal about this song is slow.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: What is the mood? And what do I experience from the director? And you know what? Sometimes when I don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on, I just email the director. What is this music? How do you describe this music? I\u2019m in contact with directors all the time and podcasters. You know, \u201cI didn\u2019t understand this word. What did your guest say here? What did you say here?\u201d.<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: The budget access stuff they just put \u201cinaudible.\u201d<\/p>\n
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BRANDY: Right. So, what we\u2019re saying here is that\u2014and we\u2019ll be wrapping up in just a few minutes\u2014but I feel like one of the things that you\u2019re really coming across clearly to me is that there is a kinesthetic kind of beauty involved in creative arts that is true no matter who\u2019s creating. And I think we have a tendency to think creativity somehow goes over here and not in the realm of captions, right? But in fact, it is. This is all creative content. You wouldn\u2019t describe writing a novel as, \u201cSlow music, slow music.\u201d Nobody does that. So, you know! So, I feel that what\u2019s really wonderful about this conversation, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed it as well, is that issues of accessibility aren\u2019t supposed to be punitive measures because you failed somewhere. They are beautiful, creative, conversant communication moments among and between different communities. And I\u2019m so glad that you could share that with us today, Cheryl.<\/p>\n
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CHERYL: Well, I\u2019m so glad you described it that way, because I\u2019ve never described it as beautifully and eloquently as you did. And I\u2019m so glad that\u2019s recorded.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
CHERYL: Because I hope to be able to just take that right out of the transcript and share it with people.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
CHERYL: Attributed to you, of course! But really, to describe what this is. And I think it still, to me, goes back to what you said about not separating out patients and doctors and not separating out access is over here, and art is over there. And in my film, my film, Who Am I To Stop It<\/em> is about isolation, art, and transformation after traumatic brain injury. And I have people who say, like, \u201cOh. Oh, interesting film about recovery.\u201d I\u2019m like, at what point did you ever hear the word \u201crecovery\u201d or hear anyone talk about it or see it in the captions or read it in the transcript or see anything that showed that? You didn\u2019t. This is, the art that happens, in that film gives us access into their hearts and their minds. And sometimes it\u2019s a song of worship. Sometimes it\u2019s protest about the injustice of life. Sometimes it\u2019s about internalized ableism. But to me, it all wraps up, all of these things are wrapped up. And to separate anything out into these discrete parts, like we\u2019re not doing a scientific experiment here. We\u2019re not doing a randomized controlled trial.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
BRANDY: [chuckling] Right!<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
CHERYL: We are talking about, like you say, communication.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
BRANDY: Human beings, yeah.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
CHERYL: Human beings communicating and using arts and media to do so. And to try to separate people out, even into creator versus audience, doesn\u2019t really serve. And I think this more integrated kind of flowy way is a much more satisfying and fun way to do it.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
BRANDY: Yes. Thank you so much, Cheryl. This is wonderful. Again to our listeners, there will be a transcript. All of our podcasts are also promoted on the blog. And we\u2019ll have some links there that go out to some of the podcasts and other materials that Cheryl Green has talked about today. So, again, thank you for listening. And join us again at the Medical Humanities podcast.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
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<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
What would it mean if, instead of being \u201cadd-ons,\u201d accessibility tools like captions and transcripts were built into a project from the ground up? What if instead of thinking about accessibility as \u201cmere\u201d additions only, we realized their incredible creative power? Listen to an interview between EIC Brandy Schillace and the intrepid Cheryl Green. Listen […]<\/p>\n
Cheryl Green is a captioner, audio describer, freelance audio and video producer with acquired invisible disabilities that inform all of her work around making media equitable and accessible. In this episode, she joins Brandy Schillace (EIC) to answer a few questions: What would it mean if, instead of being \u201cadd-ons,\u201d tools like captions and transcripts were built into a project from the ground up? What if instead of thinking about accessibility as technical additions only, we realized their incredible creative power? Questioning binaries of \u201cabled\u201d and \u201cdisabled\u201d (much like questioning the binary of patient\/doctor) reveals that there are no neat divisions. Inclusivity must be built into the very structure of our projects, and when this is accomplished, the result is collaborative community creation.<\/p>\n
More from Cheryl Green:<\/strong><\/p>\n NewDay.com\/film\/who-am-i-stop-it<\/p>\n WhoAmIToStopIt.com (podcast episode on transcripts for radio: WhoAmIToStopIt.com\/pigeonhole-podcast-5-radio-transcripts)<\/p>\n Twitter and FB: @WhoAmIToStopIt<\/p>\n TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/p>\n BRANDY SCHILLACE: Welcome back to the Medical Humanities Podcast<\/em>. Today, I\u2019m very happy to be bringing on Cheryl Green. Cheryl is a captioner, audio describer, freelance audio and video producer, and Member-Owner at New Day Films, who\u2019s an acqui- who has acquired invisible disabilities that inform her work around making media equitable and accessible. Thank you so much for joining us today, Cheryl.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL GREEN: Well, thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: I\u2019m really excited to hear more about your audio work, particularly because I think so often, we produce content, and then only later, as an afterthought, think about its accessibility. A good example being I was late to the game in adding captions to the videos we do for Medical Humanities<\/em>. So, I wonder, what is it like to have that at the forefront as you develop something?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Oh, that\u2019s such a nice question. Most of my clients do it the traditional way, which is to make their media, whether it\u2019s a podcast or video, and then later, when they realize that they have to add some piece of accessibility, they kind of\u2014some people grudgingly, some people happily\u2014will then look into figuring out how they add that. And most people end up needing to go a budget route, which I understand very much. I mean, everything I do is\u2014I\u2019m an independent media producer\u2014everything I do is freelance contract work. I understand budgets very well, but I also understand that when we go for the most budget option of adding access, it\u2019s usually really crappy.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And I think that when the focus is on compliance\u2014oh, look, I added the captions\u2014when we focus on compliance and we don\u2019t focus on quality and equity and why, like the heart behind why you would have access, we end up with mostly very inaccurate, super error-filled, really low-quality crap. I mean, Rikki Poynter is a Deaf YouTuber who coined the word \u201ccraptions\u201d to\u2014<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: \u2014to refer to what people call the auto-generated captions on YouTube.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: They\u2019re not. They\u2019re subtitles. They\u2019re auto-subtitles, but they\u2019re craptions. They are absolute crap. And a lot of the, a lot of what happens when you don\u2019t account for access at the beginning and you have to go with one of these companies is, even when it\u2019s done by a human, they\u2019re absolute craptions. A lot of my workload is recaptioning people\u2019s films.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right, right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: It\u2019s awful. So, but I\u2019m also a content creator. And so, for me, when I release my podcast, or\u2014I am also an editor and producer on two other podcasts\u2014the audio does not go out until the transcript is done. Like even though it\u2019s a podcast, it\u2019s not considered to be finished at all after the audio editing is done. There has to be the text transcript and provided in multiple ways: a downloadable PDF, which is not always accessible to screen readers. So, you know, you might wanna also do a Word document or Google Doc or paste it directly onto the website. So, I feel for people on a budget. But I think it\u2019s more about shifting the mindset and shifting the paradigm to saying, this piece of content actually literally is not finished until we\u2019ve added the access that we plan to add.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n Some of my clients, I\u2019ll find out six months later that they had some podcasts out they didn\u2019t tell me about, and they\u2019re waiting for a transcript. Or on the flip side, I\u2019ll submit transcripts, and nearly a year goes by before they mention, \u201cOh, I\u2019m about ready to upload your transcripts.\u201d So, I\u2019m like, it\u2019s literally control C, control V.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: It doesn\u2019t take you a year.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Yeah. And I think that that gets us back to that idea of what perspective are you coming from, right? So, when you have somebody who creates work and they\u2019re thinking of an audience principally made up of sighted, people who have hearing, you know, they think about an audience that does not actually have ability issues, then accessibility ends up being something that\u2019s taken as read. And our theme this year at Medical Humanities<\/em> is about what does accessibility mean? It\u2019s a much broader concept. It\u2019s not just, is there a ramp? Are there captions? It\u2019s have you thought about this community that you are participating with? Have you made them part of your community, even more important? So, I wonder, could you respond to that partly by telling us more about your audio work that you\u2019ve done? You said you\u2019re producer, I think, on two different podcasts?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Yes. So, three. One is my own podcast, Pigeonhole<\/em>, where I do everything. I do the recording, the engineering, editing, production.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY SCHILLACE: You\u2019re a one stop shop! [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: One stop shop! I do the transcripts myself, the blog posts, all that. I would say I promote it, but I don\u2019t because\u2014<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Oh no!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: \u2014my life\u2019s downfall is I am one of the worst marketers you\u2019ll ever meet on anything. So, I put myself out there. But maybe somebody finds it, maybe they don\u2019t. But I\u2014<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: We\u2019ll make sure we have a link on the blog that is attendant to this podcast so that everyone can find you.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: [chuckles] Thank you. I also edit the audio and do the transcripts for DisArt\u2019s podcast. DisArt is out of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and they have a podcast called DISTopia.<\/em> Which I can\u2019t get over that name. I love it so much.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: They only, they hired me because they\u2019re doing a special series that\u2019s related to COVID-19 life. It is kind of like oral history, really, but centered in this moment. So, I edit those and transcribe those episodes. And then I\u2019m one of the editors on Alice Wong\u2019s Disability Visibility Podcast.<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I\u2019ve been with her for a few years. And hello to my boss, Alice Wong!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [chuckles]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And I also do all the transcripts for all the episodes for that. And then I can\u2019t remember if there was some other part of the question that you asked.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Oh, just in those situations where the community, the disability community, is part of the larger community that you are intentionally reaching out to. Can you talk about how that changes the perspective? So, what I mean by that is so often, in addition to this concept of craptions, which I love, a lot of times, even really well-intentioned, well-meaning people don\u2019t go far enough because they actually aren\u2019t in communication with those communities. They don\u2019t know what it takes to really be accessible. And so, you had mentioned briefly about even the kinds of downloads of transcripts are important to the story. Could you say more about, in something like Disability Visibility<\/em>, well, you know that that\u2019s your audience. How does that change the way you approach sort of from the ground up? I would just be interested to know how does that look, to those of us who are trying to do it right, but kind of coming from the other side?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL GREEN: Sure. So, I think the first step is kind of conceptual, and that is to say, have I thought about who\u2019s in my audience? [chuckles]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Like, \u2018cause you mentioned earlier, oh, people don\u2019t think about disability community. I think where it starts is people don\u2019t even ask themselves whether they are being super normative or not. Well, I\u2019ve got a podcast about environmentalism. So, environmentalists will like that. Great. Here we go. OK. Well, there are environmentalists who need transcripts. But you stopped when you just said the topic of your show. So, and a lot of people think that only disability-related content should be made accessible, which never ceases to blow my mind.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Yeah.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: So, for me, it starts with the concept of asking who is your audience? And I can\u2019t speak for Alice and Disability Visibility Podcast<\/em>, but I can say for mine, I don\u2019t care one bit if non-disabled muggles check out my podcast ever. I really, my podcast is kind of weird and very insider. I have had people say, \u201cI don\u2019t know what that, what that…. It feels so insider. I feel like I don\u2019t get it.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOK. Well, then it\u2019s not for you.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Hmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I don\u2019t aspire to make something that everybody will like. My thing is for a targeted audience. It\u2019s for Deaf and disabled, very politicized community. It\u2019s not necessarily even for the impairment-based communities that I identify with because it\u2019s not a medical focus show. And I think that a lot of people with my same diagnoses and impairments can\u2019t even relate to the show because it\u2019s not about those topics.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I think I\u2019m sort of talking myself into a circle.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: OK. So, there\u2019s the concept of who might possibly be in the audience I wanna reach.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right, right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I guess conceptually, it\u2019s always a good question, as a creator, who might be able to access this, and who is not gonna be able to access this and why.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: So, one reason people can\u2019t access your work is because they don\u2019t have a good enough Internet connection. But another reason people can\u2019t access your work is because you did not provide it in a way that they can access. And that\u2019s another shift. We need to move away from saying, \u201cOh, people with this disability can\u2019t do this thing and access my show.\u201d And we need to focus more on creators. What can you do to make your show accessible?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Rather than focusing on what you think someone can or can\u2019t do, how much access can you provide? How much are you willing to?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And how far will you go to find high-quality access? \u2018Cause if you put effort into making a beautiful piece, and you pay top dollar or even medium dollar for the editors and color correction and sound sweetening, all this stuff, why would you go with budget access?!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mm. Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Why do you think that for someone who can only access your film by reading the captions, why would you think that giving them substandard and inaccurate captions is good?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Like, that actually, they\u2019re gonna have a bad experience with your film. But people who don\u2019t need captions might have an excellent experience with it.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, that\u2019s what we need to do, is start by asking those questions, and then figure out the budget.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: If you can\u2019t afford captions, is there something else you can cut corners on so that you can afford the captions?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Rather than treating that like the add-on that is sacrifice-able. I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n And in a way, it\u2019s your point about you know your audience really well for your podcast, and you know who you\u2019re aiming for. And it\u2019s a disabled, it\u2019s a community of disability people. People who are interested in, who are themselves disabled. And you said it\u2019s not even every kind of disability. But you know who they are. And you\u2019re providing access to those people, but you\u2019re not excluding. It\u2019s not as though someone who didn\u2019t have a disability couldn\u2019t access to your podcast. They could access it. They might not understand it. The problem that we have with these others is that it doesn\u2019t, you never get to the point of finding out if they understand the content. They can\u2019t even access it.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Right, right! And I did an episode actually on my podcast about transcripts for radio and why we need them. And it was based on a real conversation where I talked to another audio professional who said he had transcripts of his stuff. I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, finally! Yay! Do you post your transcripts?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cNo, why? Why would I do that?\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [gasps] Oh, my!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell…\u201d And so, I\u2019m kind of a slow thinker a lot of the time. So, what I failed to realize was he has transcripts so that he can edit his interviews down and edit his content down. And I was like, but literally, I don\u2019t understand why you would have transcripts and not post them. So, now, three years later, I understand why. But he said, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t post transcripts.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, what about, for example, Deaf people?\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t think Deaf people would be interested in my show.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [chuckles]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And then turned his body away from me to end the conversation. We were at a group dinner thing. And that inspired me to, in tears, come home and do a whole episode about transcripts. And I interviewed all these people. And a lot of people are like, \u201cWe do transcripts for deaf people!\u201d And I think stop virtue signaling and patting yourself on the back. Deaf people are not the only people who use transcripts.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And if you do that kind of virtue signaling where you name this one group because they\u2019re a group that everybody\u2019s familiar with, you\u2019re actually showing that you\u2019re not really, you\u2019re focused on yourself. You\u2019re not focused on equitable access. Just say you have transcripts. \u201cWe have tran\u2014\u201d Anybody who wants to use them can and should be able to. They\u2019re not transcripts just for Deaf people. It doesn\u2019t make any sense. It\u2019s fine to pick a group and use as an example. You know, I said to this guy, \u201cWhat about Deaf people?\u201d But there are so many other people, and in this interview, or in this episode I did on transcripts, I interviewed all sorts of people who don\u2019t identify as Deaf but can\u2019t partake of content that\u2019s not transcribed.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And, yeah, it was a fun episode to do. It was an angering episode, but it was fun.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BOTH: [chuckle]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Well, I think this gets back to another point that I have about accessibility. And \u2018m gonna sort of take a long way around to get to what I\u2019m trying to say, which is when we talk about patients, for instance, if you say patients, doctor. Well, this is Medical Humanities. <\/em>And so, often you\u2019ll have people describe the experience of a patient versus the experience of a doctor. We\u2019ve largely moved away from that as much as we can, anyway, at Medical Humanities<\/em>, not because we wanna make that invisible, but because \u201cpatient\u201d is a category that is one tiny fraction of your life. You might be a patient, but you\u2019re also a violinist, a gourmet chef. You\u2019re a whole human being. And so, we\u2019ve really moved more towards looking at the public, right? So, how do we reach the public? And in a way, I feel like accessibility is similar. If you\u2019re just looking at accessibility, as in, I am correcting this missing thing, i.e., I am providing transcripts for the Deaf, like you said, the ones who signal it, then you\u2019re not really, the focus is on the missing thing. It\u2019s sort of a taking the negative approach instead of the positive approach. Sort of like looking at someone as a patient as opposed to an entire human being that may also be a patient. So, I wonder\u2014I may be making this needlessly complex\u2014but I feel that accessibility is something to focus on in and of itself to make things accessible. Because we\u2019re all part of this community that has varying needs, as opposed to this kind of narrowing down. Is that kind of what you\u2019re saying there too?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I didn\u2019t understand the question. I understood everything leading up to the question.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs] Sorry. And this concept of the opening out of access, that you should provide these things because you should provide them, because they\u2019re a necessary part. You know, the podcast isn\u2019t done until there\u2019s a transcript. This concept that the accessibility factor is not about you picking a community and saying, \u201cWell, we\u2019re letting them in.\u201d But it\u2019s actually this all of our communication, all of our community, all of our work in podcast, audio, and video, too, is supposed to be accessible because it just should be. Not because we\u2019re trying to fix a specific problem, but because blanket-wide, accessibility is important.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Yes. I need to pause because my screen saver came on, and it\u2019s hurting my eyes.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Oh.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: [typing] So, I just need to remember my password so I can unlock my computer.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Oh, no!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: What that reminded me of is that there is, in a lot of these accessibility conversations\u2014and I was even in one recently\u2014there still, here\u2019s one piece that\u2019s missing is, in larger conversations, especially with people outside disability community and disability arts, there\u2019s still an assumption that I\u2019m coming across that we should make stuff accessible to Deaf and disabled audiences. And they leave out the whole thing about disabled creators.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, here I am talking to you right now. And once my screen went to sleep and the screen saver, it came on, I couldn\u2019t really even speak to you because I don\u2019t like that screen saver. I don\u2019t know how to change it. I suppose I could look it up. But I have to do different things to help me concentrate because of my disability. And this thing became a distraction to where I couldn\u2019t even participate in my own interview. And so, when we\u2019re making stuff accessible, it\u2019s also accessible for Deaf and disabled creators who need to always be…. Disabled people need to be considered leaders. And one of the things that I love about what you said, where we\u2019re not gonna talk about patients and doctors as these two separate groups, another beautiful thing about that is that you do have Deaf and disabled doctors and providers of different kinds.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Exactly.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, it doesn\u2019t help to divide. There are doctors who are patients!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Yes!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: So, I do always wanna\u2014 Some of the choices that I make in my sound design are for me. And I hope that other people who have auditory processing struggles or concentration struggles or hearing sensitivity, I think about them too, of course. But I\u2019m not gonna put something in that I can\u2019t tolerate, and that helps me think about other people. OK, you know what? These lights are flashing too bright. I can\u2019t have that. If I, editing this video, can\u2019t tolerate to look at that, there are other people who not only can\u2019t tolerate it, but even worse than can\u2019t tolerate it.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, I think there is also a disabled aesthetic that can open up that, by its nature, is more accessible because it\u2019s accommodating. So, you\u2019re never gonna hear a podcast of mine with people talking and music with a driving percussion under it. It\u2019s just never gonna happen on my show because I can\u2019t tolerate that!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughing] Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, part of my aesthetic ends up just being an accessibility aesthetic or a disabled esthetic.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And I no longer can remember if I\u2019m actually answering the question that you asked!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: No, you are, you are. Or you\u2019re leading somewhere more beautiful. It doesn\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: OK!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs] I wanna grasp onto something you said here, which I think is very important, which is the creative. You keep saying \u201ccreators, creative.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Mm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: And that\u2019s a positive word. And I think what I was trying to get at, possibly not well, is that we have a tendency to look at accessibility as we look at disability, as like this will fix that. Hearing aid for this person. Eyeglasses for that, you know.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: As opposed to the creative aspects that come along with what these kinds of things can mean. So, there\u2019s a positive way that says, how can I make accessibility beautiful and glorious and amazing? Instead of looking at the negative, how can I fill this gap so I don\u2019t get into trouble?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: I mean, 100%. Absolutely. I think my favorite parts of\u2014 Well, I love captioning and audio description. Captioning is especially great because I love tedious, repetitive stuff. And you might have to watch the same film three, five, eight times to make sure the captions are as close to perfect as you can possibly make them. I love that repetitive tediousness of it. And…but I also love, I love…. I spend a lot of time on thesaurus.com. And I\u2019ll even, it\u2019s not so much dancing, but sometimes I\u2019ll hear something in a film, and I can\u2019t think of the adjective to describe it. So, I\u2019ll try to put the sound in my body and feel it and move my body in a way that will eventually somehow, magically elicit an adjective that I want or at least get me closer on thesaurus.com to what I want.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: And so, I\u2019m having this kind of blissed out, creative experience of like unleashing words through spontaneous, improvised movement. But I also have the joy of knowing that I didn\u2019t say \u201cslow music, slow music, slow music, slow music.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Like the budget captioners, if they even describe the music at all. It\u2019s just like, will you stop saying it\u2019s slow? So, if I hear slow music in a film, it sounds slow to me. I\u2019m not gonna put \u201cslow.\u201d I\u2019m gonna think about what emotion is the director evoking? Why did the director pick this particular kind of music? What does this music make me feel? Well, it\u2019s making me feel like thinking. OK, so maybe it\u2019s pensive music. Maybe it\u2019s thoughtful music. Why is it slow? You know what? This time, it\u2019s that\u2014 Sometimes, directors might use the same piece of music several times throughout the film. I mean, there\u2019s very good reasons to do that.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Sure.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Well, I might hear the same song twice. And one time it makes me think, and another time it makes me sad. It\u2019s the same music, but this scene feels sad. So, I might describe the music as…. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s a better word than \u201csad,\u201d but I don\u2019t have to be literal about this song is slow.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: What is the mood? And what do I experience from the director? And you know what? Sometimes when I don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on, I just email the director. What is this music? How do you describe this music? I\u2019m in contact with directors all the time and podcasters. You know, \u201cI didn\u2019t understand this word. What did your guest say here? What did you say here?\u201d.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Mmhmm, mmhmm.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: The budget access stuff they just put \u201cinaudible.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Right. So, what we\u2019re saying here is that\u2014and we\u2019ll be wrapping up in just a few minutes\u2014but I feel like one of the things that you\u2019re really coming across clearly to me is that there is a kinesthetic kind of beauty involved in creative arts that is true no matter who\u2019s creating. And I think we have a tendency to think creativity somehow goes over here and not in the realm of captions, right? But in fact, it is. This is all creative content. You wouldn\u2019t describe writing a novel as, \u201cSlow music, slow music.\u201d Nobody does that. So, you know! So, I feel that what\u2019s really wonderful about this conversation, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed it as well, is that issues of accessibility aren\u2019t supposed to be punitive measures because you failed somewhere. They are beautiful, creative, conversant communication moments among and between different communities. And I\u2019m so glad that you could share that with us today, Cheryl.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Well, I\u2019m so glad you described it that way, because I\u2019ve never described it as beautifully and eloquently as you did. And I\u2019m so glad that\u2019s recorded.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Because I hope to be able to just take that right out of the transcript and share it with people.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [laughs]<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Attributed to you, of course! But really, to describe what this is. And I think it still, to me, goes back to what you said about not separating out patients and doctors and not separating out access is over here, and art is over there. And in my film, my film, Who Am I To Stop It<\/em> is about isolation, art, and transformation after traumatic brain injury. And I have people who say, like, \u201cOh. Oh, interesting film about recovery.\u201d I\u2019m like, at what point did you ever hear the word \u201crecovery\u201d or hear anyone talk about it or see it in the captions or read it in the transcript or see anything that showed that? You didn\u2019t. This is, the art that happens, in that film gives us access into their hearts and their minds. And sometimes it\u2019s a song of worship. Sometimes it\u2019s protest about the injustice of life. Sometimes it\u2019s about internalized ableism. But to me, it all wraps up, all of these things are wrapped up. And to separate anything out into these discrete parts, like we\u2019re not doing a scientific experiment here. We\u2019re not doing a randomized controlled trial.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: [chuckling] Right!<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: We are talking about, like you say, communication.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Human beings, yeah.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n CHERYL: Human beings communicating and using arts and media to do so. And to try to separate people out, even into creator versus audience, doesn\u2019t really serve. And I think this more integrated kind of flowy way is a much more satisfying and fun way to do it.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n BRANDY: Yes. Thank you so much, Cheryl. This is wonderful. Again to our listeners, there will be a transcript. All of our podcasts are also promoted on the blog. And we\u2019ll have some links there that go out to some of the podcasts and other materials that Cheryl Green has talked about today. So, again, thank you for listening. And join us again at the Medical Humanities podcast.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n <\/p>\n <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" What would it mean if, instead of being \u201cadd-ons,\u201d accessibility tools like captions and transcripts were built into a project from the ground up? What if instead of thinking about accessibility as \u201cmere\u201d additions only, we realized their incredible creative power? Listen to an interview between EIC Brandy Schillace and the intrepid Cheryl Green. Listen […]<\/p>\n