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	<title>Comments on: Onwards, to the past!  Especially when slavery is involved&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/</link>
	<description>Journal of Medical Ethics blog</description>
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		<title>By: Frank Mason</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/#comment-4478</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Mason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 21:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/?p=1754#comment-4478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not defending Fouch&#039;s choice of Bible verses, but given that perhaps 50 percent of the population in Rome, including some medical doctors, were slaves, it seems a reasonable group to talk about with regards to &#039;industrial relations&#039;. And the verses Fouch quotes are not about managing slaves, but about how slaves should manage themselves in their situation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not defending Fouch&#8217;s choice of Bible verses, but given that perhaps 50 percent of the population in Rome, including some medical doctors, were slaves, it seems a reasonable group to talk about with regards to &#8216;industrial relations&#8217;. And the verses Fouch quotes are not about managing slaves, but about how slaves should manage themselves in their situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain Brassington</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/#comment-4477</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain Brassington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 21:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/?p=1754#comment-4477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm.  It won&#039;t surprise you to learn that I&#039;m not convinced.  First up: if there are any valuable moral lessons to be derived from the Christian tradition, it doesn&#039;t follow that they&#039;re unique to that tradition, or that they&#039;d be unavailable outside of it.  (It&#039;s a tradition that stole quite liberally from others, after all - as it should have.  If an idea&#039;s good, take it.)  It could be that some ideas are just good ideas, and others are just bad, irrespective of who happens to have them.

When you talk about the Church Fathers and early editors of the Bible as being the greatest sources of ethical solutions ever since: well, most influential, perhaps.  (But how much blood was spilled for that influence?)  If you mean the most intellectually satisfying... naaaaah.
As for Singer&#039;s list: so what?  &lt;i&gt;nullius in verba&lt;/i&gt;, and all that.But let&#039;s get to the more substantive point.  Noone sane would claim that being a product of your time makes your claims irrelevant.  We do - as you hint - still take (say) Aristotle seriously as a political thinker, despite his beliefs about slavery.  (I&#039;ll use Aristotle to stand for other comparable thinkers for the moment.)  But there&#039;s an important further point.  Noone quotes lines from Aristotle and thinks that that&#039;s sufficient: even avowed Aristotelians prod and poke and reconstruct the texts, and quite often disavow particular bits.  What&#039;s valuable about him, and others, whether or not they&#039;re fuzzy of face, is a methodology, rather than the exact words.  Ditto Kant, Mill, Hobbes, Hart, Arendt... anyone else you care to mention - up to and including saints and prophets.  A quotation might be the start of an inquiry, or it might be scaffolding in support of a claim - but it&#039;s never a substitute for argument.  And if the argument is good, then it&#039;s good without the backing of authorities.  It doesn&#039;t matter that Aristotle took slavery for granted; we don&#039;t have to, and there&#039;s enough left over for &lt;i&gt;The Politics&lt;/i&gt; still to be worth reading, and still to lead us down interesting intellectual routes.

Further, suppose someone wondered what an Aristotelian approach to politics might teach us about industrial relations.  (Odd, but you never know.)  Wouldn&#039;t it be strange to go to the bits about slavery and decide that they&#039;d fit the bill?  Wouldn&#039;t that show a bit of a moral tin ear?  I think so.  In fact, it&#039;d be perfectly coherent for a person to quote those bits in order to show where Aristotle went wrong.  But it&#039;d be more likely that they&#039;d just decide that Aristotle himself said nothing useful on the matter, just as he said nothing useful about the best way to treat psoriasis, and said nothing useful about how to rewire a house.  Sometimes, canonical texts are just useless.  Or maybe anything useful he did have to say is to be found in other parts.

And yet what Fouchs did was deliberately pick out those verses - out of 31000-odd in the Bible - that are mainly concerned about managing slaves.  That could mean one - or both - of two things.  The first is that those&#039;re the best the Bible has to offer on the matter - which is as much as to say it has nothing to offer.  The second is that Fouchs genuinely thinks that they apply.  Noone - I assume - forced him to write the post he did; noone forced him to write on those verses in particular.  Yet he did.  And that&#039;s quite perplexing.

Two other things.  One: the lack of comments doesn&#039;t necessarily mean what you think it means.  Most posts here get few or no comments, and it&#039;s marking season anyway, so people might well have other things to do.  And generally, people are more likely to comment if they disagree - so it&#039;s possible that a lack of comments means that people have just nodded in agreement and wandered off.  I have no direct evidence for the truth of these claims, but neither do you have for yours, so we call call it quits there.

Two: Using Churchill&#039;s name would have diluted the rhetorical point because he does have a bit of a personality cult.  I could have chosen Enoch Powell, or any number of others, but Smuts was the first person to pop into my foetid lefty little head.  Infer about me from that what you will.

Crikey.  That went on for longer than I thought it would...
:)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.  It won&#8217;t surprise you to learn that I&#8217;m not convinced.  First up: if there are any valuable moral lessons to be derived from the Christian tradition, it doesn&#8217;t follow that they&#8217;re unique to that tradition, or that they&#8217;d be unavailable outside of it.  (It&#8217;s a tradition that stole quite liberally from others, after all &#8211; as it should have.  If an idea&#8217;s good, take it.)  It could be that some ideas are just good ideas, and others are just bad, irrespective of who happens to have them.</p>
<p>When you talk about the Church Fathers and early editors of the Bible as being the greatest sources of ethical solutions ever since: well, most influential, perhaps.  (But how much blood was spilled for that influence?)  If you mean the most intellectually satisfying&#8230; naaaaah.<br />
As for Singer&#8217;s list: so what?  <i>nullius in verba</i>, and all that.But let&#8217;s get to the more substantive point.  Noone sane would claim that being a product of your time makes your claims irrelevant.  We do &#8211; as you hint &#8211; still take (say) Aristotle seriously as a political thinker, despite his beliefs about slavery.  (I&#8217;ll use Aristotle to stand for other comparable thinkers for the moment.)  But there&#8217;s an important further point.  Noone quotes lines from Aristotle and thinks that that&#8217;s sufficient: even avowed Aristotelians prod and poke and reconstruct the texts, and quite often disavow particular bits.  What&#8217;s valuable about him, and others, whether or not they&#8217;re fuzzy of face, is a methodology, rather than the exact words.  Ditto Kant, Mill, Hobbes, Hart, Arendt&#8230; anyone else you care to mention &#8211; up to and including saints and prophets.  A quotation might be the start of an inquiry, or it might be scaffolding in support of a claim &#8211; but it&#8217;s never a substitute for argument.  And if the argument is good, then it&#8217;s good without the backing of authorities.  It doesn&#8217;t matter that Aristotle took slavery for granted; we don&#8217;t have to, and there&#8217;s enough left over for <i>The Politics</i> still to be worth reading, and still to lead us down interesting intellectual routes.</p>
<p>Further, suppose someone wondered what an Aristotelian approach to politics might teach us about industrial relations.  (Odd, but you never know.)  Wouldn&#8217;t it be strange to go to the bits about slavery and decide that they&#8217;d fit the bill?  Wouldn&#8217;t that show a bit of a moral tin ear?  I think so.  In fact, it&#8217;d be perfectly coherent for a person to quote those bits in order to show where Aristotle went wrong.  But it&#8217;d be more likely that they&#8217;d just decide that Aristotle himself said nothing useful on the matter, just as he said nothing useful about the best way to treat psoriasis, and said nothing useful about how to rewire a house.  Sometimes, canonical texts are just useless.  Or maybe anything useful he did have to say is to be found in other parts.</p>
<p>And yet what Fouchs did was deliberately pick out those verses &#8211; out of 31000-odd in the Bible &#8211; that are mainly concerned about managing slaves.  That could mean one &#8211; or both &#8211; of two things.  The first is that those&#8217;re the best the Bible has to offer on the matter &#8211; which is as much as to say it has nothing to offer.  The second is that Fouchs genuinely thinks that they apply.  Noone &#8211; I assume &#8211; forced him to write the post he did; noone forced him to write on those verses in particular.  Yet he did.  And that&#8217;s quite perplexing.</p>
<p>Two other things.  One: the lack of comments doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean what you think it means.  Most posts here get few or no comments, and it&#8217;s marking season anyway, so people might well have other things to do.  And generally, people are more likely to comment if they disagree &#8211; so it&#8217;s possible that a lack of comments means that people have just nodded in agreement and wandered off.  I have no direct evidence for the truth of these claims, but neither do you have for yours, so we call call it quits there.</p>
<p>Two: Using Churchill&#8217;s name would have diluted the rhetorical point because he does have a bit of a personality cult.  I could have chosen Enoch Powell, or any number of others, but Smuts was the first person to pop into my foetid lefty little head.  Infer about me from that what you will.</p>
<p>Crikey.  That went on for longer than I thought it would&#8230; <img src='http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Frank Mason</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/#comment-4476</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Mason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 20:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/?p=1754#comment-4476</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You ask, can solutions
to modern problems be found in the writings of men with beards from
1900 years ago? 




When Peter Singer went
in search of the origins of ethics, 11 of his 12 sources were men
with beards, three of whom died 2300 years ago and only one of whom
was alive in the last 100 years1.  If living in a time
when slavery was considered morally supportable makes their opinions
irrelevant, then seven of his sources are ruled out.  I wondered why
he mentioned them?



If learning from
ancient men with beards is like taking lessons in community relations
from Jan Smuts, perhaps that&#039;s no bad thing.  Smuts led a nation who,
in 1902, considered Britain to be a vicious, immoral enemy and turned
the majority of them into supporters of the British cause in WWII. 
If you&#039;re talking about his attitude to race, you could have picked
on Winston Churchill, but we don&#039;t reject his wisdom because he was a
child of his age.



Reproducing the bible
verses from Fouch&#039;s blog without mentioning his comments, are an
exercise in what I call the “Ricky Gervais school of exegesis.” 
In this profound technique, one puts out a bible verse without
context or comment, and hopes that an audience who know little
history and less theology will look at it through 21st
century lenses and dismiss it as ridiculous.  The low number of
responses to your post suggests that your audience are indeed better
educated than that!



As we&#039;re only dealing
here with what people see as self evident, I&#039;ll just offer this: the
writings of these men with beards from 1900 years ago, have been the
greatest source of solutions to ethical problems ever since.  While
some think their opinions are no longer valid, no-one has so far come
up with a better system. 




1 Peter Singer, Ethics,
1994.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You ask, can solutions<br />
to modern problems be found in the writings of men with beards from<br />
1900 years ago? </p>
<p>When Peter Singer went<br />
in search of the origins of ethics, 11 of his 12 sources were men<br />
with beards, three of whom died 2300 years ago and only one of whom<br />
was alive in the last 100 years1.  If living in a time<br />
when slavery was considered morally supportable makes their opinions<br />
irrelevant, then seven of his sources are ruled out.  I wondered why<br />
he mentioned them?</p>
<p>If learning from<br />
ancient men with beards is like taking lessons in community relations<br />
from Jan Smuts, perhaps that&#8217;s no bad thing.  Smuts led a nation who,<br />
in 1902, considered Britain to be a vicious, immoral enemy and turned<br />
the majority of them into supporters of the British cause in WWII.<br />
If you&#8217;re talking about his attitude to race, you could have picked<br />
on Winston Churchill, but we don&#8217;t reject his wisdom because he was a<br />
child of his age.</p>
<p>Reproducing the bible<br />
verses from Fouch&#8217;s blog without mentioning his comments, are an<br />
exercise in what I call the “Ricky Gervais school of exegesis.”<br />
In this profound technique, one puts out a bible verse without<br />
context or comment, and hopes that an audience who know little<br />
history and less theology will look at it through 21st<br />
century lenses and dismiss it as ridiculous.  The low number of<br />
responses to your post suggests that your audience are indeed better<br />
educated than that!</p>
<p>As we&#8217;re only dealing<br />
here with what people see as self evident, I&#8217;ll just offer this: the<br />
writings of these men with beards from 1900 years ago, have been the<br />
greatest source of solutions to ethical problems ever since.  While<br />
some think their opinions are no longer valid, no-one has so far come<br />
up with a better system. </p>
<p>1 Peter Singer, Ethics,<br />
1994.</p>
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		<title>By: Udo Schuklenk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/#comment-4473</link>
		<dc:creator>Udo Schuklenk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 19:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/?p=1754#comment-4473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OMX, this is absolutely hilarious. I clicked the link to the offending blogpost... and he really used reference to slavery to give us advice on how we ought to vote in current day labour relations. Love it, the ONION has some serious competition to contend with here!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMX, this is absolutely hilarious. I clicked the link to the offending blogpost&#8230; and he really used reference to slavery to give us advice on how we ought to vote in current day labour relations. Love it, the ONION has some serious competition to contend with here!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Udo Schuklenk</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/05/15/onwards-to-the-past-especially-when-slavery-is-involved/#comment-4472</link>
		<dc:creator>Udo Schuklenk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 19:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/?p=1754#comment-4472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OMX, I thought you were joking, so I clicked on the link... this is ONION quality. Absolutely hilarious!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMX, I thought you were joking, so I clicked on the link&#8230; this is ONION quality. Absolutely hilarious!</p>
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