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	<title>Comments on: Stephen Ginn on antidepressants: psychiatrists only?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/</link>
	<description>Just another blogs.bmj.com weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andepressants prescribed by psychiatrists only? &#124; Frontier Psychiatrist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-5070</link>
		<dc:creator>Andepressants prescribed by psychiatrists only? &#124; Frontier Psychiatrist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Also published on bmj.com blogs [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Also published on bmj.com blogs [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leno</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4521</link>
		<dc:creator>Leno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4521</guid>
		<description>This is what has been happening to many people for years. They seek treatment for anxiety just from a general physician instead of specialised doctors. They would also let you know the duration you have to take these drugs, incase you have an history of health problems, they can guide whether you should take the &lt;a href="http://www.pro-medics.com/valium/8-advantages-taking-valium.html/" rel="nofollow"&gt;antidepressant&lt;/a&gt; drugs or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is what has been happening to many people for years. They seek treatment for anxiety just from a general physician instead of specialised doctors. They would also let you know the duration you have to take these drugs, incase you have an history of health problems, they can guide whether you should take the <a href="http://www.pro-medics.com/valium/8-advantages-taking-valium.html/" rel="nofollow">antidepressant</a> drugs or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Lalvani</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4460</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Lalvani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4460</guid>
		<description>As a fellow psychiatrist, I'm disappointed by your article and I would be troubled by it had my expectations of better not been crushed so much by working as a psychiatrist in recent years.

Contrary to what you write, "depression" may been seen as a term with some utility in society to describe symptoms nad signs which can aggregate in greater or lesser number in human beings. Yes a largely phenomenological description without a molecular or pathological basis may be flawed but who ever expected psychiatry to be any different (4 thousand years of philosophy hasn't gotten any closer to being able to provide an analysis of how qualia result form certain neusological processes). Many of us who have lived with phenomena which can be described in "mental illness" terms (persistent low mood engendering suicidal ideation, anhedonia, psychomotor retardation, ruminative or circular thought patterns), who have such phenomena aggregating in our family history, who have recovered from these phenomena and who can recognise such phenomena in historical accounts going back at least two millenia, find it trajic that qualified psychiatrics haven't come to terms with the difciculties of false positives in diagnosis. Of course some people will state they're persistently low in mood when they are not, they may say they feel suicidal just to provoke a response or for another reason but that can't undermine the fact that for some people these phenomena are part of problem that can respond to medication. As a psychiatrist who has experienced bouts of "depression", I find it a considerable divergence from the facts that some of the symptoms can be treated without medication. In my mst serious episodes, the healthiest diet, abstaining from work, daily 3-mile joggs, comedy therapy, sunshine, great films, favourite books and the company of beautiful women will not pull me out of my state. It is hugely physilogical for me. My sense of taste changes, my balance, I slow down, I have circular-repeating thoughts of only a few words. Do not be able to distinguish this from what you call regular sadness is bordering on  negligent.

For symptoms which by their very nature can be faked I humbly suggest the following rules:

1) What would the person gain by faking illness? Not as easy as it sounds, some fears are only floating on the borders of our consciousness.

2) Does the person look unwell; look for palor, tiredness, anxious face, unkeptness; and are these normal for this person.

3) Does the account "hang together". "I'm really depressed Doctor, my wife's annoying em and I can't sleep", might be more anger-related difficulties than anything depressive, poor example but the meaning of words and what they point to is crucial.

4) Get a collateral history, what is this person's best functioning level and when were they last there. Do they enjoy life when well (I certainly do!)

5) Family history, especially any family members spent time in psychiatric institutions and suicides and suicide attempts.

6) Look at the response to antidepessants or ECT, it can be quite dramtic in people with genuine symptoms.

Please don't give up hope of being able to genuinely treat symptoms with meidcation and compassionate psychotherapy. Yes we'll get it wrong and have false positives but it's certainly better ethically than undertreating.

Nick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a fellow psychiatrist, I&#8217;m disappointed by your article and I would be troubled by it had my expectations of better not been crushed so much by working as a psychiatrist in recent years.</p>
<p>Contrary to what you write, &#8220;depression&#8221; may been seen as a term with some utility in society to describe symptoms nad signs which can aggregate in greater or lesser number in human beings. Yes a largely phenomenological description without a molecular or pathological basis may be flawed but who ever expected psychiatry to be any different (4 thousand years of philosophy hasn&#8217;t gotten any closer to being able to provide an analysis of how qualia result form certain neusological processes). Many of us who have lived with phenomena which can be described in &#8220;mental illness&#8221; terms (persistent low mood engendering suicidal ideation, anhedonia, psychomotor retardation, ruminative or circular thought patterns), who have such phenomena aggregating in our family history, who have recovered from these phenomena and who can recognise such phenomena in historical accounts going back at least two millenia, find it trajic that qualified psychiatrics haven&#8217;t come to terms with the difciculties of false positives in diagnosis. Of course some people will state they&#8217;re persistently low in mood when they are not, they may say they feel suicidal just to provoke a response or for another reason but that can&#8217;t undermine the fact that for some people these phenomena are part of problem that can respond to medication. As a psychiatrist who has experienced bouts of &#8220;depression&#8221;, I find it a considerable divergence from the facts that some of the symptoms can be treated without medication. In my mst serious episodes, the healthiest diet, abstaining from work, daily 3-mile joggs, comedy therapy, sunshine, great films, favourite books and the company of beautiful women will not pull me out of my state. It is hugely physilogical for me. My sense of taste changes, my balance, I slow down, I have circular-repeating thoughts of only a few words. Do not be able to distinguish this from what you call regular sadness is bordering on  negligent.</p>
<p>For symptoms which by their very nature can be faked I humbly suggest the following rules:</p>
<p>1) What would the person gain by faking illness? Not as easy as it sounds, some fears are only floating on the borders of our consciousness.</p>
<p>2) Does the person look unwell; look for palor, tiredness, anxious face, unkeptness; and are these normal for this person.</p>
<p>3) Does the account &#8220;hang together&#8221;. &#8220;I&#8217;m really depressed Doctor, my wife&#8217;s annoying em and I can&#8217;t sleep&#8221;, might be more anger-related difficulties than anything depressive, poor example but the meaning of words and what they point to is crucial.</p>
<p>4) Get a collateral history, what is this person&#8217;s best functioning level and when were they last there. Do they enjoy life when well (I certainly do!)</p>
<p>5) Family history, especially any family members spent time in psychiatric institutions and suicides and suicide attempts.</p>
<p>6) Look at the response to antidepessants or ECT, it can be quite dramtic in people with genuine symptoms.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t give up hope of being able to genuinely treat symptoms with meidcation and compassionate psychotherapy. Yes we&#8217;ll get it wrong and have false positives but it&#8217;s certainly better ethically than undertreating.</p>
<p>Nick</p>
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		<title>By: The sadness &#171; Nelly And I</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4459</link>
		<dc:creator>The sadness &#171; Nelly And I</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4459</guid>
		<description>[...] One guy puts it this way: In truth, “depression” is a very difficult thing to define and any doctor who says that they can reliably differentiate it from sadness is deluding themselves. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One guy puts it this way: In truth, “depression” is a very difficult thing to define and any doctor who says that they can reliably differentiate it from sadness is deluding themselves. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zekria Ibrahimi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4447</link>
		<dc:creator>Zekria Ibrahimi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4447</guid>
		<description>The anti-psychiatrist claim that there is no such thing as mental illness is a bankrupt and also dangerous one. Syndromes for depression or schizophrenia are (unfortunately) real. Entering a psychiatric ward suddenly throws those deadly syndromes out of the text- book and into frightening actuality. I was sectioned and if I had not met other mentally ill people I might have been more sceptical about the truth of these syndromes and symptoms.

     The condition of 'melancholia' is an ancient thing, alas across all cultures.

     The problem is the drugs that are given for mental illness. Anti- depressants can actually mimic illicit drugs, such as speed or so- called 'ecstasy'. Prozac was an example of a SSRI that transformed itself from a medical treatment into some sort of unsafe 'lifestyle' monster.

     Mental illness is probably a spectrum, ranging from the average to the extreme. The difficulty for a GP or consultant is judging where depression has become something that is beyond everyday sadness and turned into a sinister thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The anti-psychiatrist claim that there is no such thing as mental illness is a bankrupt and also dangerous one. Syndromes for depression or schizophrenia are (unfortunately) real. Entering a psychiatric ward suddenly throws those deadly syndromes out of the text- book and into frightening actuality. I was sectioned and if I had not met other mentally ill people I might have been more sceptical about the truth of these syndromes and symptoms.</p>
<p>     The condition of &#8216;melancholia&#8217; is an ancient thing, alas across all cultures.</p>
<p>     The problem is the drugs that are given for mental illness. Anti- depressants can actually mimic illicit drugs, such as speed or so- called &#8216;ecstasy&#8217;. Prozac was an example of a SSRI that transformed itself from a medical treatment into some sort of unsafe &#8216;lifestyle&#8217; monster.</p>
<p>     Mental illness is probably a spectrum, ranging from the average to the extreme. The difficulty for a GP or consultant is judging where depression has become something that is beyond everyday sadness and turned into a sinister thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr.N.P.iswanathan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4446</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr.N.P.iswanathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4446</guid>
		<description>family physicians can treat psychiatric problems in their clinics</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>family physicians can treat psychiatric problems in their clinics</p>
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		<title>By: Gerard 't Hart</title>
		<link>http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2009/06/24/stephen-ginn-on-antidepressants-psychiatrists-only/#comment-4444</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerard 't Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/?p=725#comment-4444</guid>
		<description>First of all, thanks for raising this issue. Like most conditions - pneumonia, eczema, tension headaches, epistaxis, there are no straightforward treatment guidelines. There is no universal global consensus of most conditions. That is partly the beauty of medicine that we empirically learn how to treat our fellow humans. I am a avid follower of evidence medicine, but after many years I ''know'' that the reality of day-to-day life does not always fit in with the guidelines.

Back to your blog. Although you initially suggest that ''we'' -GPs, ITUs and stroke wards  and hospital physicians - are somehow like cowboys describing these ''anti-depressants''. Not sure were your evidence is for it. We do a HAD score, as do many hospital doctors. and a limited psychiatric evaluation. True, with increasing pressures of day-to-day life in the 21st century and the decreased social, family and community sense - not to mention decrease of religious involvement, we GP's are becoming more and more the new priests and pastors for the community. And we don't give absolution or communion but counseling, relaxation tapes and indeed sometimes anti-depressants. 

I suggest you spend some time in my surgery and trying to solve societies problems by saying no to them  and then see how tough they - and perhaps you as well are...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, thanks for raising this issue. Like most conditions - pneumonia, eczema, tension headaches, epistaxis, there are no straightforward treatment guidelines. There is no universal global consensus of most conditions. That is partly the beauty of medicine that we empirically learn how to treat our fellow humans. I am a avid follower of evidence medicine, but after many years I &#8221;know&#8221; that the reality of day-to-day life does not always fit in with the guidelines.</p>
<p>Back to your blog. Although you initially suggest that &#8221;we&#8221; -GPs, ITUs and stroke wards  and hospital physicians - are somehow like cowboys describing these &#8221;anti-depressants&#8221;. Not sure were your evidence is for it. We do a HAD score, as do many hospital doctors. and a limited psychiatric evaluation. True, with increasing pressures of day-to-day life in the 21st century and the decreased social, family and community sense - not to mention decrease of religious involvement, we GP&#8217;s are becoming more and more the new priests and pastors for the community. And we don&#8217;t give absolution or communion but counseling, relaxation tapes and indeed sometimes anti-depressants. </p>
<p>I suggest you spend some time in my surgery and trying to solve societies problems by saying no to them  and then see how tough they - and perhaps you as well are&#8230;</p>
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